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So, I guess the website had a hiccup, so I'm re posting what I had before...
Essentially, a party member died and is creating a bodyguard kensai magus (Lots of AoO's to be using later...). During a conversation with our GM, a few questions arose:
1. Can a Magus use spell combat and be fighting defensively?
2. When a Magus uses spell combat, is his off hand considered to be "free" for the purposes of Crane Wing?
3. Can you use combat expertise and be fighting defensively at the same time?
4. When you use "In Harm's Way" to intercept an attack that was going to hit an ally, can you then use crane wing to deflect that attack entirely?
Thanks in advance!
1. Can a Magus use spell combat and be fighting defensively?
Yes. You can full attack and Fight Defensively, so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.
2. When a Magus uses spell combat, is his off hand considered to be "free" for the purposes of Crane Wing?
Not sure on the RAW of this one, but I'd have to say no for RAI at the very least. You're considered Armed when holding a Touch spell and it discharges when you touch something. Seems a bit off that it would count as a free hand when you're not allowed to touch anything without discharging the spell (i.e. can't use the hand for anything but delivering the spell, basically) and even more off if it allowed you to discharge when you were deflecting (effectively reverse of the FAQ about Crane Style and Shocking Grasp in the OTHER direction).
3. Can you use combat expertise and be fighting defensively at the same time?
They're different typed bonuses, so yes.
Can't combine it with Total Defense though (both Dodge bonuses, and it specifically says nope).
4. When you use "In Harm's Way" to intercept an attack that was going to hit an ally, can you then use crane wing to deflect that attack entirely?
Have to say a big NO to this one. In Harm's Way makes no mention of you being hit by the attack (and it therefore can't be deflected). You intercept teh attack, and then take full damage and any associated effects.
In effect, it's an "anti-deflect", not a hit (much like a Deflect does not count as a miss).
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I think this combination is in a grey area. There was a FAQ a while back which allows a Magus using Spell Combat to benefit from the extra attack granted by Haste, but I think it stopped short of making Spell Combat count as a full attack for other purposes such as Fight Defensively. I think without any further FAQs your Kensai might be out of luck.
I was planning a PC called "El Flamingo" based largely on this combo and the film "Zorro the Gay Blade". I've actually had the concept for a long while, but the Crane Wing combo seemed like it would fit it really well.
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Actually, don't multiple dodge bonuses stack without issue?3. Can you use combat expertise and be fighting defensively at the same time?They're different typed bonuses, so yes.
Can't combine it with Total Defense though (both Dodge bonuses, and it specifically says nope).
It's more of an issue that you cant be using both at the same time, not that their effects stack.
2. When a Magus uses spell combat, is his off hand considered to be "free" for the purposes of Crane Wing?
I would say while he's holding the spell, no. Once he delivers the spell, yes. So if he delivers the spell before the end of his round, his hand would be free to deflect an attack with Crane Wing.
If he holds the charge to his next turn or if someone interrupts with a readied action before he delivers the spell, then no, his hand isn't free to deflect attacks.
Re: Fighting defensively, in the discussion following the reversal of the Haste\Spell Combat rules, SKR stated that they hadn't officially decided if it was actually a full attack action or just a special full-round action that behaved as a full attack action for pairing with Haste.
So it's not 100% certain that you can fight defensively with Spell Combat. Right now it'd be a GM call.
There's been an official FAQ since then Xaratherus, get with the times. =)
Yes.
Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat."
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Rynjin, I do believe he was talking about the discussion that followed that very FAQ.
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As to the question about fighting defensively and such, we're kicking around that idea before posting an answer
As found here:
Quote is from hereIt's not for PFS, so we could potentially house rule it, but we like to keep as close to PFS as possible (we have a couple PFS players in the group).
We'll probably end up going with being able to use fighting defensively and Spell Combat, though using a hand for a spell and then trying to do crane wing might be... difficult. Unless you can cast with a prenesile tail O.o
Perhaps Wand Wielder and Weapon wand would be useful here too. Got a few other questions about the hand thing, but I haven't researched it yet and would throw up another thread if I needed an answer. But thanks for the response guys!
Ehhhhhhh...I think there's a case to be made that with the way the FAQ is worded (haste and OTHER EFFECTS), there's not even a houserule needed.
Is fighting defensively an "effect" or just an option in combat? I too recall that SKR seemed leery about endorsing the Spell Combat + Fighting Defensively combo. Maybe the folks who make the FAQs wanted to discuss it more, get stories from the front lines, or just leave DMs some wiggle room to shut down troublesome PCs. Then again, maybe a new FAQ will come out soon saying it is OK or forbidden.
Correct, that was the FAQ - and the discussion - to which I was referring, FrodoOf9Fingers.
SKR's opinion, at least as based on his repeated comments in that thread, is that "and other effects" would not automatically include fighting defensively. It's not really an 'effect'.
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2. When a Magus uses spell combat, is his off hand considered to be "free" for the purposes of Crane Wing?I would say while he's holding the spell, no. Once he delivers the spell, yes. So if he delivers the spell before the end of his round, his hand would be free to deflect an attack with Crane Wing.
If he holds the charge to his next turn or if someone interrupts with a readied action before he delivers the spell, then no, his hand isn't free to deflect attacks.
Actually, the charge gets held in the Sword Hand, not the Free Hand. That is how they deliver the spells through their weapon.
Actually, the charge gets held in the Sword Hand, not the Free Hand. That is how they deliver the spells through their weapon.2. When a Magus uses spell combat, is his off hand considered to be "free" for the purposes of Crane Wing?I would say while he's holding the spell, no. Once he delivers the spell, yes. So if he delivers the spell before the end of his round, his hand would be free to deflect an attack with Crane Wing.
If he holds the charge to his next turn or if someone interrupts with a readied action before he delivers the spell, then no, his hand isn't free to deflect attacks.
When using Spell Strike, yes, I completely agree. The question was about Spell Combat, which doesn't imply that the magus is delivering the spell through the weapon. (I suspect the OP asked about Spell Combat because Spell Strike seemed more obvious, or the magus in question is only 1st level.)
A touch spell's charge is not 'held' in any specific limb. A Magus can cast a spell, attempt to deliver it through his sword via Spellstrike and miss, then on the next round use a standard touch attack with the other hand to deliver the charge.
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Xaratherus is correct there, I guess another issue with the Crane Wing Magus, if you don't get your spell off, you'll be discharging your spell when you deflect someone's attack. Gah!
(The text supporting that is found in the FAQs)
So, issues with Crane Wing and the Magus:
1. Gm's may rule that fighting defensively cannot be combined with Spell Combat.
2. You may or may not be considered having a free hand when you use spell combat, so you would probably use chill touch/frostbite to get your dirty work done.
3. You would discharge any spell you have currently when you deflect an attack via crane wing.
Xaratherus is correct there, I guess another issue with the Crane Wing Magus, if you don't get your spell off, you'll be discharging your spell when you deflect someone's attack. Gah!
(The text supporting that is found in the FAQs)
So, issues with Crane Wing and the Magus:
1. Gm's may rule that fighting defensively cannot be combined with Spell Combat.
2. You may or may not be considered having a free hand when you use spell combat, so you would probably use chill touch/frostbite to get your dirty work done.
3. You would discharge any spell you have currently when you deflect an attack via crane wing.
Re #3: This isn't always a bad thing. I had toyed around with a Monk\Magus hybrid at one point that used Rime metamagic with Frostbite. That'd be a win\win for the Crane Wing user - deflect the attack, deal 1d6 plus 1 point of cold damage per level, and entangle the enemy without a save...
If you rule that you can't fight defensively with spell combat, do you also say that you can't fight defensively with a full attack? That doesn't seem right to me.
Except that Spell Combat is not a full attack; it's a specific full-round action called Spell Combat.
The FAQ did not rule that Spell Combat was a being changed to a generic full attack action (as that could technically cause other issues), but that it was treated as such for the purposes of getting the extra attack from Haste and such.
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That doesn't change my question. The issue seems to be that the CRB calls Fighting Defensively a standard action, thus you can't fight defensively doing anything that isn't a single attack. That seems to me more likely to be an editing issue, and the intent was to allow fighting defensively anytime you attack. I am curious if I am in a minority in seeing it that way.
That doesn't change my question. The issue seems to be that the CRB calls Fighting Defensively a standard action, thus you can't fight defensively doing anything that isn't a single attack. That seems to me more likely to be an editing issue, and the intent was to allow fighting defensively anytime you attack. I am curious if I am in a minority in seeing it that way.
There is a separate section that states you can fight defensively as part of a full attack action specifically:
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.
So it's allowed as a standard or a full attack action; you've been allowing it, which is right - just not for the right reasons. :)
Whether or not it's allowed as part of Spell Combat is a separate question.
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Fighting defensively(FD) is a modifier to your attack. It is called an action because it replaces the attack (i.e. Standard for one attack, full round for full attack). The CRB words this poorly, but just consider FD a modifier to the attack action. So, yes you can use FD with spell combat. Also, someone said before that Combat Expertise and FD are different type bonuses. This is incorrect, they are both Dodge bonuses. However, all Dodge bonuses stack.
As to the use of Crane Wing when using Spell combat, no they can't use it. It says right in the description that spell combat is a form of two weapon fighting, so the off hand is not free, it is occupied performing the somatic and material components of the spell.
Of course, that begs the question; what about spells that are verbal only?
Assuming your logic is sound (and personally I feel that it is), it's irrelevant. Note that the Spell Combat text clarifies that your hand has to be free even if the spell has no somatic components.
The real question, I think, is whether or not the hand used for Spell Combat must remain free for the entire round.