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I do not GM and have only recently started playing melee types. Why is it so complicated? Why don't they use spells like normal people? Anyway. I am stupid at maths and close reading evidently, but I cannot fathom this.
Please go through these examples:
A) Crazy Bob is a Barbarian 6. On a standard round he hits with BAB +6. On a full round he hits twice with BAB +6 and +1.
This we know.
B) Crazy Bob has taken Beast Token 1. He has 2 claw attacks. His level BAB is still +6,+1.
What are his standard and his full round attacks? Are they both primary? How would Improved Unarmed Strike help him here?
C) Crazy Bob is still a Barbarian 6. Due to an item or something, he gets Form of the Dragon 1. This gives 1 Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings and 1 Tail attack.
How does this interact with his iterative attacks? If he didn't have any (Barb 1 for example), what difference would the primary attacks (claws and bite) vs. secondary have? What about full-round?
D) Crazy Bob is a Barbarian 20. On a standard attack with his sword, he hits with his normal BAB, +20. He has Form of the Dragon cast on him.
To clarify, how would all of this combine? He now has 1 Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings and 1 Tail attack, please show how this works with a standard action and a full-round attack.
For a dragon, wings and tail are secondary, claw and bite are primary. A full attack from a dragon is pretty deadly.
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Simply put:
Natural attacks NEVER get iteratives.
If you have multiple Natural Attacks you can make ALL of them as a full round attack, IN ADDITION TO any manufactured weapons you have UNLESS that manufactured weapon takes up a body part you need to use for that natural attack. If you use Manufactured weapons and Natural Attacks in conjunction, the Natural Attacks are ALWAYS Secondary (take a -5 penalty to-hit, only had 1/2 Str to damage).
You may not make multiple attacks as a Standard action, no matter how many natural attacks you have. You may pick one and use it.
For example: Bob the 6th level Beast Totem Barbarian has a bite (from Animal Fury) and two claws.
He may make the bite and two claw attacks as a full round attack. The claws are primary natural attacks, the Bite is Secondary.
Bob the Barbarian decided to pick up a Greatsword. He can no longer use his claw attacks (the sword take sup his hands) but he gets two swipes with the Greatsword, and his Bite attack (still Secondary).
Bob the Barbarian with Form of the Dragon has what scientists call a "s!%*load" of Natural Attacks. Unfortunately, he can no longer wield weapons in this form, and since Natural Attacks don't get iteratives, he's stuck with what he's got (at a significant bonus to-hit).
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Extrapolating the dragon example for PCs.
A Dragon Disciple sometimes has 2 claws and 1 bite. For dragons, which he counts as, they are all primary. On a standard attack, does he get all three then? What is the benefit of having a full-round attack?
The same Dragon Disciple is using his greatsword (no claws) and his bite. What then? Is there any benefit to having iterative attacks?
Also, why is there not a table for this?
Edit: posted this before Rynjin. Thank you everybody. Still not wholly sure, tbh, but I will mull it over until my epiphany.
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Natural attacks don't get any iterative. So in a standard action you get 1 attack using whatever you want. But in a full attack, you attack with all your natural attacks. So in the above example with form of the dragon, you get 1 bite and 2 claws each at full bab. Then you get 2 wings and 1 tail attack at full bab -5. The -5 is because the wings and tail are secondary natural attacks, while the bite and claws are primary attacks.
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A Dragon Disciple sometimes has 2 claws and 1 bite. For dragons, which he counts as, they are all primary. On a standard attack, does he get all three then? What is the benefit of having a full-round attack?
No matter how many attacks you have available, a standard action only allows you to make one attack, unless you have a feat like Cleave. (However, Cleave is a different standard action than a normal standard action attack.)
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It's been answered above but i'll break down your questions for you if that might help.
B) Crazy Bob has taken Beast Token 1. He has 2 claw attacks. His level BAB is still +6,+1.What are his standard and his full round attacks? Are they both primary? How would Improved Unarmed Strike help him here?
Crazy Bob now has options!
Standard attack - One weapon attack (it could be an unarmed punch if he likes!) at +6 OR one claw attack at +6
Full attack - Iterative weapon attacks at +6/+1 (he could use a weapon 2 handed in this case)
OR 2 Claw attacks at +6/+6
OOOOOOORRRR (This is probably why Crazy Bob might be confused) he can Take his iterative attacks (but only using a weapon held in one hand) at +6/+1 and ALSO a single Claw attack with his free hand! BUT this attack will count as secondary since he is using it as well as a manufactured weapon, which gives him a -5 penalty... thus adding an additional +1 Claw for 3 attacks total
C) Crazy Bob is still a Barbarian 6. Due to an item or something, he gets Form of the Dragon 1. This gives 1 Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings and 1 Tail attack.
How does this interact with his iterative attacks? If he didn't have any (Barb 1 for example), what difference would the primary attacks (claws and bite) vs. secondary have? What about full-round?
Poor Crazy Bob no longer gets any iterative attacks, he only has Natural weapons now.
Standard attack - Any one natural attack at his full attack, Bite +6
Full attack - ALL his natural attacks! Primary at the full hit chance, secondary at hit chance -5. I.e.; Bite +6, Claw x 2 +6, Wing x 2 +1, Tail +1
D) Crazy Bob is a Barbarian 20. On a standard attack with his sword, he hits with his normal BAB, +20. He has Form of the Dragon cast on him.
To clarify, how would all of this combine? He now has 1 Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings and 1 Tail attack, please show how this works with a standard action and a full-round attack.
Crazy Bob is well aware what he does here, exactly the same as before! When he has no weapon wielded because he's Super Awesome Crazy Dragon Bob he uses either a single natural attack at full hit chance on a standard attack or all of them at full for Primary and -5 for Secondary on a full attack.
Hopefully Bob is just crazy with a lust to kill now, not crazy thanks to natural attacks math!
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Might as well throw this out there....
Natural attacks do not add STR to hit.
Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
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Might as well throw this out there....
Natural attacks do not add STR to hit.
Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Absolutely incorrect. All melee attacks add Strength or in some cases Dexterity to your hit chance, that sentence you are referencing in the NA section does not mean 'only' full BAB.
Hi! I am Bob the Black Dragon! I get +14 to hit from BAB and +7 to hit from my Strength score of 25 and -1 to hit from my size (I feel fat ;.;), totaling +20 to my Primary natural attacks and +15 to my secondaries! My Bite gets +21 thanks to weapon focus... and my, you look *tasty*! :D
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- black/adult-black-dragon
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Suthainn, the (dragon) scales have finally fallen from my eyes. Very helpful and clear explanation.
In the example that Crazy Bob is a Dragon Disciple, is there an argument that on his 1st round charge he should run in with his greatsword as it has the two handed strength/Power Attack bonus, then drop his sword so that in the 2nd round when he doesn't have to move and can full attack, he can use both claws and his bite (all 3 are primary attacks for dragons)?
Exclude weapon enchantments from this of course.
Can you have a weapon cord on the dropped greatsword for if you have to move in subsequent rounds? yes it looks silly and wouldn't work in real life, but still.
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Suthainn, the (dragon) scales have finally fallen from my eyes. Very helpful and clear explanation.
In the example that Crazy Bob is a Dragon Disciple, is there an argument that on his 1st round charge he should run in with his greatsword as it has the two handed strength/Power Attack bonus, then drop his sword so that in the 2nd round when he doesn't have to move and can full attack, he can use both claws and his bite (all 3 are primary attacks for dragons)?
Exclude weapon enchantments from this of course.
Can you have a weapon cord on the dropped greatsword for if you have to move in subsequent rounds? yes it looks silly and wouldn't work in real life, but still.
Charge with greatsword then switch to all natural attacks is relatively common, a little cheesey perhaps in some cases, perhaps not in others, but perfectly doable and absolutely allowed rules wise. Weapon cords alas I know little about so I can advise nothing there.
Well...Suthainn, I must say...prove it.
"Attack Bonus
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier"
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Well...Suthainn, I must say...prove it.
Where, exactly, do you believe those obscene to-hit values for colossal monsters comes from? Hint: It isn't just from BAB.