I'm going to be playing kingmaker in a couple weeks and I've decided on a human ninja that focuses more on stealth and infiltration. But I haven't quite decided on how to build it. So I am here asking for your advice. We will be using a 20 point buy and any pathfinder book is ok (no 3rd party).
For stats, I haven't decided between a str/dex hybrid, or a straight dex build.
16 str
15 dex
14 con
10 int
8 wis
14 cha
I'd put the lv4 bonus into dex to make it 16. After that I'm not quite sure.
This would give me higher damage and carrying capacity overall without the feat tax. But I'd take a -1 to anything dex, int or wis based (compared to the dex build).
11 str
17 dex
14 con
12 int
10 wis
14 cha
I'd put all my lv bonuses into dex.
With that, I'd only have to focus on dex. But that comes with a feat (and possibly an enhancement) tax.
Two Weapon Fighting
Combat Reflexes
Defiant Luck
Inexplicable Luck
Skill Focus x3 with focused study
Weapon Focus
The Eldritch Heritage line in the shadow bloodline.
Quick Draw
Vanishing Trick
Shadow Clone
Acrobatic Trick
High Jump
Hidden Weapon
Fast Stealth
Sudden Disguise
Ghost Step
Invisible Blade
Master Disguise
Unbound Step
And finally, I'm not sure what to use my favored class bonus on, hp, skill point, or every 6 lvs I could get a rogue talent/ninja trick.
In closing and to reiterate, I am mainly looking for advice on what feats and tricks to take, and when. But any advice would be appreciated.
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Betrayer feat comes to mind if you want to stealth around/assassinate eventually. Problem is betrayer requires 2 feats (Quick draw and Persuasive+ a Bab of 3) but it could work well with what you have in mind.
If you plan to infiltrate any reason you aren't taking the darkvision ninja tricks? especially as a human you aren't getting darkvision easily.
Thanks, you have all given me much to think about. I'm considering taking a monk dip for drunken master. Only thing I don't like is the delay to ninja abilities. And damn, fast drinker requires such a high con.
XMorsX - Thanks, I'm unsure about the fighter dip, but I'll think about it. And I'm pretty set on being human.
Thank you both.
The most off putting part of a dex build, is the rather low damage until you can get an agile enchantment.
About the fighter dip, I think brawler is a better choice. You still get weapon training at lv3, but it gives you +1 to hit and +3 to damage with unarmed strikes, instead of the +1 with weapon master.
For starting stats I'm thinking of
16 str
14 dex
15 con
12 int
14 wis
7 cha
OR
10 str
17 dex
16 con
12 int
14 wis
7 cha
I'm leaning towards the str build, since it doesn't need weapon finesse or the agile enchantment.
For feats
Monk/Ninja
1 weapon finesse, defiant luck, dodge (bonus)
2 combat reflexes (bonus)
3 inexplicible luck
5 fast drinker
7 crane style
9 crane wing
11 crane riposte
4 tricks by lv10, using the favored class bonus to get an extra rogue talent.
+8 hit, excluding any str/dex bonuses
Monk/Ninja/Fighter
1 weapon finesse, defiant luck, dodge (bonus)
2 combat reflexes (bonus)
3 inexplicible luck
5 fast drinker
6 ninja trick
7 crane style, extra ninja trick or crane wing
8 extra ninja trick or crane wing
9 extra ninja trick
10 crane riposte
11 ???
3 tricks by lv10
+10 hit, +3 damage, excluding any str/dex bonuses
Dueling gloves would give +2 to hit and damage
Weapon focus/specialization would give +1 hit, +2 damage
I believe the difference between dipping fighter or not, is this.
fighter gets +2 hit, +3 damage, weapon focus/specialization and dueling gloves push that to +5 and +7
get crane wing and riposte sooner
3 less tricks, but 3 bonus feats
no advanced tricks until lv18
24 less skill points
2d6 less sneak
but more steady, consistent damage
If I got a ring of ki mastery, forgotten trick could be useful, since I'd have more ki from drunken master.
At lv 4, the dex build would have 20 AC with barkskin. But unless I invest a lot into AC, it's not going to be able to keep up with the enemies. So I think it would be better to focus on ways to avoid damage completely, like crane style and shadow clone. Though yes, that would suck early on.
And you're right, it is weapon training, but it's called something else, so it doesn't qualify.
first ninja trick- vanishing trick, 10th level ninja trick- the improved version that makes it improved invisible. (free Sneak attacks whenever you want!)
Yes, invisible blade would be my first advance trick, because of how good it is. But taking dips into monk and fighter would delay that quite a bit.
I think I'm going to use a cestus instead of going unarmed. Because it would be cheaper to enchant, easier to bypass dr, crit more often (19-20 vs 20) and I can still flurry with it. The only downside is, it will do 1-2 less damage on average.
I've been wondering, would it be good to take master of many styles? I'd lose flurry but be able to get the crane wing chain much sooner.
MoMS is going to change your build from a flurry (or TWF- same concept) build to a single hit build. When you're standing still and flanking, you'll be able to use a ki for a full attack, so you'll still be able to get two hits in. So while you'll have less damage potential standing still, this will only come into effect occasionally.
In my experiences with the Str Ninja, I only get to full attack 30% to 40% of the time... but I only find that I need to use ki for an extra attack 10% of the time. It's mostly not worth the ki. These numbers may be a bit skewed, because my Ninja has developed a taste for Flurry of Stars and defaults to that when he gets a chance.
A smart monster is going to move out of flank whenever possible. The ones that don't tend to be large enough (or just plain scary enough) that they don't care if you're sneak attacking them. This means that you'll spend a lot of time moving around the battlefield to get flanking, which won't allow for as many flurries or full attacks as you'd think. So I don't think you'd see as much of a loss in attack as you'd suspect. The worse case scenario would be when you're flanking a BBEG that doesn't move. The extra attack could end up saving you an extra round of combat.
It's a choice between defense and offense. I think Crane Wing and the potential attack gained from Crane Riposte are a big enough gain to risk it.
With MoMS, it may be worth it to consider a mobile build. You already have Dodge, so Mobility and Spring Attack are options. This would allow you to move into flanking, strike with sneak attack, and move back out of flanking (or flank something else). Panther Style could be an interesting option later on.
The issue I think your current build could run into is swift actions. Theoretically, you should have enough Drunken Ki to use invisibility and make extra attacks more often than my Ninja can... but you'll also be using swift actions to gain that Drunken Ki back. I'm not sure how this will work out in actual play experiences, so I hope you come back after some levels and let us know. :)
Thank you for the advice. I will look into and consider getting spring attack. If I feel I'm able to full attack often, I might get the first TWF feat later on.
And sure I could share my experience, though I imagine it would take a few months.
Are you sure you want to do a Dex build? I personally have had good experiences with a Str build two handing a katana.
The thing about TWFing as a ninja is that you don't have a lot of feat slots so a lot of it will be filled with the TWF feats. Also the -2 penalty to TWFing will be hard on you since ninjas have 3/4 BAB and don't have a lot of Attack increasing abilities.
Currently I'm planning to go with a STR build. But later on (say lv7 or 9), my dex could be high enough for the first TWF feat. Still debating on the fighter dip, the bonuses to hit and damage are great, but it delays ninja progression.
EDIT: And since I won't have flurry anymore, that means I can use another weapon with a better crit rate.
Well an interesting thing happens at level 8. You get your second attack due to BAB. I've been getting hasted for the important stuff since about level 6 (when a wizard build in my PFS lodge kicked into its climb towards awesome). Add in the Ki attack and the second BAB attack, and I started being able to make +15/+15/+15/+10 attacks on a flank. Considering I'm power attacking for a 1d10+15 (+4d6 sneak attack) on each hit... I'm not sure if having TWF would make much more of a difference. If I've been allowed to flank the bad guy and get a full attack, then it's round 2 and he's taken enough damage that I'm going to murder him on decent dice rolls.
Which reminds me: You're definitely going to want a weapon that you can two hand and power attack with if you go with the strength MoMS build. ^_^
That sounds great, one guy will be playing an arcanist. So we will likely have haste at least some of the time. If I take the fighter dip, I could have spring attack by lv8. If not, it will have to wait until lv11, unless I delay fast drinker. While I don't like the delay in ninja abilities, it does give a good bonus to hit and damage. And I like the inexplicable luck feat so I want to get it asap.
For my first 2 ninja tricks, I'm thinking of shadow clone for survivability and forgotten trick for utility. But haven't decided in what order to get them.
I'm going to be playing kingmaker in a couple weeks and I've decided on a human ninja that focuses more on stealth and infiltration. But I haven't quite decided on how to build it. So I am here asking for your advice. We will be using a 20 point buy and any pathfinder book is ok (no 3rd party).
For stats, I haven't decided between a str/dex hybrid, or a straight dex build.
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And finally, I'm not sure what to use my favored class bonus on, hp, skill point, or every 6 lvs I could get a rogue talent/ninja trick.
In closing and to reiterate, I am mainly looking for advice on what feats and tricks to take, and when. But any advice would be appreciated.
Stealth is Dex based. Infiltration is either by them not knowing you are there (stealth) or them not thinking you are important (disguise/bluff/etc.). The not important is Cha based. If you put too much in Str, you loose out on these target activities. Given your builds, it looks like you will do OK.
Anther thing to be aware of: stealth and infiltration are often solo tasks. This takes focus off the party, and may not work as well as you hope. If you instead try to get the whole party into infiltration, Cha becomes very important, along with the disguise and fake documents skills.
For combat, I like the Terrain Mastery rogue talent. You gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography), Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks while in this terrain. You can also get duplicates, on a new terrain, and get +2 on all other favored terrains. If you go for the PrC Horizon Walker, you can at 2nd level give a +2 to you allies, and at 3rd gets the terrain bonus as a favored enemy bonus which will spike your hit and damage rate.
/cevah
Oh, invisibility trick is the hands down choice for me. I looked at shadow clone and decided to spring 4500 on a wand of mirror image. It's treated me very well for 4 levels ands it's not even half used yet. Not spending the Ki point to activate it is major - I can have it in most fights (sometimes it's not worth it) and still have Ki for flurry of stars, extra attacks, and invisibility. The 4500 gets a lot more palatable when you view it as your armor budget. Otherwise, you'd spend even more making sure everything can't hit you whenever it wants.
Wand gets d4+1 while shadow clone gets d4. Something else to consider.
Granted, this is in PFS instead of an AP so I can buy whatever I want. But hopefully in Kingmaker you have a crafting caster anyways. Otherwise, prepare to be dirt poor.
Oh, if you get a two handed weapon anyway, reach could be VERY interesting. Especially if you can fit in the lunge feat. I know that's enough feat development to be a different build, but it has strong advantages for a flanker.