Taking Ten on Knowledge Checks

[Cardinal Reinhardt]

As the title suggests, I have a question regarding the ability to take tens on a knowledge check. Now, I have seen a number of folks on this forum claim that anyone can take a ten on a knowledge check. The rules page for knowledge checks do not seem to indicate one way or the other. The only reason I find this to be dubious is the following ability:

Loremaster (Ex):

At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action.

Since this explicitly mentions taking a ten on knowledge checks, I am inclined to believe that this is normally not possible. The only other (reasonable) interpretation I can think of is that Loremaster allows the bard to take a ten on knowledge checks in combat. In short, my questions are:

1) What is the rule for taking a ten on knowledge checks?
2) If anyone can do this, why would it be specifically mentioned as a clause in the Loremaster ability?

Also, I apologize if this can be found elsewhere. I was unable to find a definitive answer to such a question myself.

[Redneckdevil]

That's a very good question. While all the other skills is due to "doing" something hence why the take 10, knowledge is what u already know and since there's no action but imo its a skill to determine what ur character already knows as in part of ur actual character, ur not actually doing anything except maybe remembering.
I would like to know the answer to this as well for curiosity sake.

[Gauss]

The prevailing thought process is that Loremaster allows you to take 10 at ANY time. Ie: during combat.

Yes, you can take 10 on knowledge skills. Skills that you cannot take 10 on are spelled out as such.

[Cardinal Reinhardt]

Gauss wrote:

The prevailing thought process is that Loremaster allows you to take 10 at ANY time. Ie: during combat.

Yes, you can take 10 on knowledge skills. Skills that you cannot take 10 on are spelled out as such.

Excellent, thanks for the response. Now I just need to convince my DM that this is how the ability should actually work.

[Kazaan]

Regarding the rules on Take 10:

Taking 10 and Taking 20 wrote:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.

That's the general rule. Some skills specifically override this (specific trumps general), such as UMD:

Use Magic Device wrote:

Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.

Knowledge lists no such restriction; ergo, there is no such restriction against Taking 10 on a Knowledge check except for the default restrictions that apply to all Take 10s. So the default RAW is that you can take 10 on any knowledge skill provided you aren't distracted or in danger. Thus, we move on to a specific case: Loremaster.

Lore Master wrote:

Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level.

We already know that, by default, anyone can take 10 on a knowledge check (provided they aren't distracted or in danger) so the line referring to "can take 10 on any knowledge skill that he has ranks in" cannot be interpreted as a permissive statement; the permission is already taken for granted. Thus, we must default to the other possible meaning; that you can take 10 "unrestricted". This is the only logical interpretation and we must start from the premise that the ability does something. Only in the case that it's impossible for the ability to actually do something (as was the case with Prone Shooter removing a penalty that simply didn't exist) does it require errata. Since there's a logical alternative (which Prone Shooter lacked), one must default to that alternative.

[Joe M.]

Gauss wrote:

The prevailing thought process is that Loremaster allows you to take 10 at ANY time. Ie: during combat.

Yes, you can take 10 on knowledge skills. Skills that you cannot take 10 on are spelled out as such.

Yep, this.

Cardinal Reinhardt wrote:

Excellent, thanks for the response. Now I just need to convince my DM that this is how the ability should actually work.

Here's something that might help with that:

James Jacobs wrote:

TwilightKnight wrote:

James, Can you take 10 on knowledge skill checks?

The take 10 rules in the skills section do not restrict it, but the lore master bardic class ability seems to suggest that you cannot normally take 10.

I am sorry if this has been answered before, but my search fu is not working. In general PFRPG, we can just rule however, but my question is important for the purposes of Pathfinder Society Organized Play and a designer's opinion would be appreciated to help end an ongoing and somewhat contentious discussion.

You can take 10 on knowledge checks, as with all checks. The bard lore master ability lets a bard take 10 at all times, even in the middle of combat.