I apologize if this has been asked a million times before, but I was unable to find an answer by searching.
What do you do (as a 3PP) if you need to copy the Section 15 of a product you use something from (under the OGL), and you don't have access to said product?
Example: If I needed the mandragora I can see at d20pfsrd that it comes from Tomb of Horrors Complete by Frog God Games, but that product is sold out, so I have no way of getting my hands on it to see which products the ToHC draws from and list in its own Section 15? (which I have to copy into mine if I use it).
The Section 15 of d20pfsrd also seems to only list all the products referenced on the site, but not show how they are connected.
Any input would be much appreciated! :-)
In some cases, yes Andrew. But in the case above, not even a pdf is available.
In any case, I was hoping for some clever online registry where you could look up Section 15s :-)
Jesper, you've linked the wrong ToHC-entry - that one was for the sold-out, limited version.
ToHC is still available (with a different cover): Here.
Of course, just in case you were looking for it and didn't just use this as an example. ^^
Okay, thanks very much End and Andrew - but the general question still stands:
If I need to use just a tiny bit - like a single monster, feat or spell - from a product, is there then anywhere that I can look up the Section 15 of said product?
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It's possible that you might find the relevant section 15 note for a particular spell, monster, etc on www.d20pfsrd.com. It's usually at the bottom of a page.
Unfortunately, d20pfsrd only states the source - not the source's Section 15, which you need to include, when you use something from said source...
From the OGL:
6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.
I read that as having to list the entire Section 15 of all sources used - i.e. not just the names of the sources but also their sources etc.
Am I wrong?
Thanks Marc and ericthecleric. I do hope you are correct, so BBG doesn't run into any legal entanglements! :-D
However, I must admit that looking at Section 15's - both those of Paizo's products and those of 3PPs that I own - is utterly confusing.
For instance, most of them - both by Paizo and 3PPs - don't include the Book of Experimental Might and Tome of Horrors, which Paizo requires of all who use their compatability license:
Section 15 of the Open Game License in your product must include the following text, in addition to any other text required by the OGL:
Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
System Reference Document. Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Copyright 2009, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Author: Jason Bulmahn, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams.
The Book of Experimental Might. Copyright 2008, Monte J. Cook. All rights reserved.
Tome of Horrors. Copyright 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene, with Clark Peterson, Erica Balsley, Kevin Baase, Casey Christofferson, Lance Hawvermale, Travis Hawvermale, Patrick Lawinger, and Bill Webb; Based on original content from TSR.
It really is a maze of legaleese to sort through? :-)
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Yes its a bunch of legaleese, Lawyers will tell you to copy the entire section 15 to be safe, and because the OGL is vague on the issue.
I am sorry in my humble opinion if your going to put it in your book and sell your book for profit then you should go buy the source.
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You only include the sources used. Not the sources of the sources. Just look in the back of any Paizo book, or most 3pps books.
Disagree. You are supposed to put in the entire Section 15 from the other product. I do note that many people are not doing that, however.
I am sorry in my humble opinion if your going to put it in your book and sell your book for profit then you should go buy the source.
In principle I agree completely, Steven - as a future 3PP, I would also greatly prefer if others bought my product before referencing/quoting it. And I do own quite a number of products/sources - both Paizo and 3PP.
For a moment though, I managed to confuse myself completely while doing the math - reaching the conclusion that in a case like the example above I would have to buy not only the ToHC at $29.99 but also all its source material for God knows how many $. That sort of expense would quickly ruin the business case of any release (or limit the sources).
But I was mistaken of course: if I do need to quote source's sources, then the Section 15 in MY source should already cover that - if their Section 15 is correct.
So, problem solved! :-)
Thanks Christina, John, ericthecleric, Steven, Thilo and Andrew for input! :-)
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You DO have to quote each creature from the Tome of Horror Complete. D20PFSRD.COM lists the proper citation with each creature listed.
You should be copying the entire Section 15 of the product being used. So you do need to quote your source's sources.
So, problem NOT solved. Since you're going to profit off of us, credit us.
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You're wrong, but it's good you asked!:)
You only include the sources used. Not the sources of the sources. Just look in the back of any Paizo book, or most 3pps books.
The thing going on here is that the source quoted should include the original source. Since the OGL very clearly states that you have to copy the S15 statements of your source, that would include all of their sources.
When you source Ultimate Magic you also have to add the following:
Anger of Angels. © 2003, Sean K Reynolds.
Book of Fiends. © 2003, Green Ronin Publishing; Authors: Aaron Loeb, Erik Mona, Chris Pramas, Robert J. Schwalb.
The Book of Hallowed Might. © 2002, Monte J. Cook.
Monte Cook’s Arcana Unearthed. © 2003, Monte J. Cook.
Path of the Magi. © 2002 Citizen Games/Troll Lord Games; Authors: Mike McArtor, W. Jason Peck, Jeff Quick, and Sean K Reynolds.
Skreyn’s Register: The Bonds of Magic. © 2002, Sean K Reynolds.
Brownie from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Daemon, Ceustodaemon (Guardian Daemon) from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Daemon, Derghodaemon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Daemon, Hydrodaemon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Daemon, Piscodaemon from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Froghemoth from the Tome of Horrors. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Ice Golem from the Tome of Horrors. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene.
Iron Cobra from the Tome of Horrors. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Philip Masters.
Marid from the Tome of Horrors III. © 2005, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene.
Mihstu from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Nabasu Demon from the Tome of Horrors. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax.
Necrophidius from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Simon Tillbrook.
Sandman from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson.
Scarecrow from the Tome of Horrors, Revised. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Roger Musson.
Shadow Demon from the Tome of Horrors. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Author: Scott Greene, based on original material by Neville White.
Wood Golem from the Tome of Horrors. © 2002, Necromancer Games, Inc.; Authors: Scott Greene and Patrick Lawinger.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Magic. © 2011, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Jason Bulmahn, Tim Hitchcock, Colin McComb, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Stephen Radney- MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Russ Taylor.
Is it long? You betcha, but that's the nature of the beast.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I've put together a lot of these damned things.
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Okay, thanks very much End and Andrew - but the general question still stands:
If I need to use just a tiny bit - like a single monster, feat or spell - from a product, is there then anywhere that I can look up the Section 15 of said product?
What do I do, buy it. It's that easy. It's a business expense. I understand that the book is expensive and you don't want to, but frankly if you want to get the legal part right you can either a) buy the PDF and get it right or b) don't use it.
My apologies if anyone have taken offense by the question I posed above.
I’ll admit the question was posed from the perspective that there is a “triviality limit” below which it is okay to include material created by others (such as a single feat, spell or monster) and cutting corners simply by looking it up on d20pfsrd.com. That was me trying to be practical and thinking like an accountant – not like a publisher. And it was bad form, for which I am very sorry.
Rest assured that Blood Brethren Games will always purchase any and all sources we may use in any of our products.
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I would never, ever copy a Section 15 from a thirty party and hope for the best. That's not due diligence. Even if the company has gone under, I would worry about who might own the catalog.
Buy the PDF. Period. If you can't, find a dog-eared copy on Amazon, or try to find some other product that quoted that snippet and use their declaration.
IANAL. The OGL mostly covers you if you use someone else's content and they got their Section 15 wrong. Still, I avoid products with defective Section 15s like the plague. That's a side issue, though.
To the OP:
What do you do (as a 3PP) if you need to copy the Section 15 of a product you use something from (under the OGL), and you don't have access to said product?
Get access to said product. Period. Call the widow of the accountant of the company that printed the book before it went under, if you have to.
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Chiming in to agree with what appears to be the majority consensus here.
1) Always own the original product you're using OGL from, no exceptions, even if you only need a sentence from it. Morally, it's the only way the originator is going to get paid. Legally, it's the only way you can be 100% certain you got the correct section 15 text.
2) Always quote the complete section 15, however long and convoluted it becomes. Just because your book uses a monster from the [Menagerie of Unpronounceable Planespawn, you still have no way of being 100% certain the text of that monster isn't using part of someone else's OGL product listed in the Menagerie's section 15, so you include the complete section 15 to cover yourself. You may possibly be legally able to get away with quoting only the exact sources used, but you'd have to research to ensure you're not using any material whatsoever from the sources of those sources. Practically, the effort isn't worth even thinking about and it's such shaky legal ground anyway that quoting the complete section 15 is the only realistic option. The only thing I'd even consider doing is editing out duplicate entries - if you use two sources which have a shared source, for example.
3) The only thing you should really be using third parties for is as an index to help you find original works, never as a substitute for them. Just like using d20pfsrd.com for rules lookups, I only use it to find a rule and point me in the direction of where to find it in its original form, never as a direct substitute for it.
Contributor
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If anyone ever needs the full section 15 of any of Rogue Genius Games products (including those we inherited from SGG), just drop me a line and I'll be happy to provide it.
I am also a believer in including the full section 15 of every product you draw info from, even when that gets unwieldy. So I would rather d20pfsrd.com do things that way... but not so much that I'm willing to claim they are in breach of anything of mine they've put it.
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@Owen: We do include the complete Section 15, but we just add it to our existing ongoing Section 15 on the page Caedwyr noted above. We *ALSO* include JUST the self reference part of the Section 15 on almost all pages just so people will know where that content came from. The inclusion of it on those pages is not meant to REPLACE our complete OGL, just serve as a convenient aid. If there is an error in our OGL I'm only too happy to correct so anyone who see's something potentially incorrect please feel free to either PM me here or email me directly at jreyst@gmail.com and I'll get right on it :D
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It might be less misleading if you just gave each page a "source" link instead of the partial Section 15.
Right, right. The Tome of Horrors has this whole "how to cite this book" section. You could create individual entries for the individual books, but then each one would need the complete Section 15 for that book.
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@Epic: Do you go to THIS or THIS and in either case, do you not see an embedded Google Spreadsheet at the bottom of the page?
(which is this spreadsheet)
That should be the complete Section 15 for the site thus far. If you need edit access let me know.
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My apologies if anyone have taken offense by the question I posed above.
I’ll admit the question was posed from the perspective that there is a “triviality limit” below which it is okay to include material created by others (such as a single feat, spell or monster) and cutting corners simply by looking it up on d20pfsrd.com. That was me trying to be practical and thinking like an accountant – not like a publisher. And it was bad form, for which I am very sorry.
Rest assured that Blood Brethren Games will always purchase any and all sources we may use in any of our products.
Jesper - No worries if you worried about me taking offense. I just saw something going off the rails and didn't want you to mess up your OGL Section 15.
So you know, the "Section 15: Copyright Notice - Tome of Horrors Complete" has the complete text needed to correctly attribute the Mandrigora from tome of Horrors Complete. It's explained in the book, but seeing as you don't have the book you are excused from not knowing what it says. ;)
So this
Mandragora from the Tome of Horrors Complete, Copyright 2011, Necromancer Games, Inc., published and distributed by Frog God Games; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
is all you would need to add. :)
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There is a reason for the requirement of using the entire section 15 of a product you reference:
Reused OGC in an OGL product is not individually cited for which previous product it was taken from.
Suppose I make a "Big Book o' OGC Feats", in which I do nothing but reprint feats from 20 different books. Then another publisher comes along and cites the Big Book in their section 15 because they used it as a reference. The original authors still deserve credit, and since there is not a good way to determine which items in the section 15 you have reused, it is best to cite all of them.
Jesper - No worries if you worried about me taking offense. I just saw something going off the rails and didn't want you to mess up your OGL Section 15.
So you know, the "Section 15: Copyright Notice - Tome of Horrors Complete" has the complete text needed to correctly attribute the Mandrigora from tome of Horrors Complete. It's explained in the book, but seeing as you don't have the book you are excused from not knowing what it says. ;)
So this
Mandragora from the Tome of Horrors Complete, Copyright 2011, Necromancer Games, Inc., published and distributed by Frog God Games; Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
is all you would need to add. :)
Thanks Chuck. Actually, the Mandragora was just an example, I stumbled upon and thought the book was sold out. Turns out I was looking at the wrong edition. But in any case it was just an example - not from a product in the pipeline, but thanks all the same :-)
When I wrote "problem solved" above, I didn't mean that the problem would be solved by only stating Tome of Horrors Complete as a source, but rather that if the S15 of ToHC was complete and in compliance with the OGL, it would be enough to copy that entire S15 of ToHC - not needing to hunt down all the sources mentioned in the ToHC S15 to double-check that the ToHC S15 hadn't omitted anything from any of the source-S15's.
Sorry it got a little confusing :-)