Does Precise Shot work from more than 30 feet away??

[Bunch of Grapes]

I am a DM and have a question about something I read earlier and could use some clarification. Precise Shot says

"Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Note: Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other.has the prerequisite of Point Blank Shot."

So the Precise Shot feat has the prerequisite of the Point Blank Shot (PBS) feat.

Point Blank Shot says

"You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks against close targets.

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet."

And under prerequisites it says

"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables."

So if the conditions of the prerequisite are not met, the secondary feat can't be used. In the case of Precise Shot, the condition to be met is the original quality of the prerequisite feat (PBS) in getting a bonus at ranges up to 30 feet. If a ranged attack is from greater than 30 feet away, the PBS can't be used. So a ranged attack 35 feet away doesn't gain a bonus. Since the "indicated other quality" of PBS is not met, PBS can't be used on a ranged attack from 35 feet away. Then Precise Shot can't be used on a 35 foot ranged attack since the prerequisite for Precise Shot, PBS, can't be used. By this reasoning, Precise Shot can only be used within the confines of the indicated quality of PBS, i.e. gaining a bonus with a ranged weapon at 30 feet or less. So Precise Shot only applies at ranges of 30 feet or less.

Makes sense to me. A PC would be more accurate up close then at a long distance away. And it rewards the PC (giving a bonus or removing a penalty) for taking a risk (getting closer to the enemy.) So I believe it's logical to say Precise Shot only works within 30 feet. And this would apply to other feats down the chain that have PBS as a prerequisite. For example, Rapid Shot and Clustered Shot could only be sued within 30 feet as well. But this reasoning also has downsides. The Far Shot feat would make less sense since it would only be useful to weapons with short range increments (thrown weapons and some guns) as opposed to weapons with long range increments (bows and crossbows). Ranged characters would have to stay close to be most effective, and those are just the ones of the top of my head. I'd like some further input before I apply this to my players.

For example, a PC with a ranged weapon wants to attack an enemy engaged in melee with an ally. Of course, the PC doesn't want to take a penalty on attack. So how close does the PC have to get??

[Umbranus]

Yes, it applies.

[thenobledrake]

It is very important to note that not being in a situation in which you are actively benefiting from a feat is not the same thing as losing that feat.

In this instance, that means that not being within 30 feet means that you do not gain +1 to hit and damage with ranged weapons - not that you have lost Point-blank Shot.

[Remy Balster]

Precise Shot can be used from any range.

[leo1925]

You should think of the point blank shot feat as a tax in order to get precise shot and nothing more.

[Chemlak]

Range of 30 feet is a requirement to use Point Blank Shot, not a prerequisite for selecting it as a feat. Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite of Precise Shot, and as long as you have Point Blank Shot written down on the character sheet as a current feat for the character, they can take Precise Shot as a feat, and use it whenever the conditions for Precise Shot apply. Those conditions do not refer to Point Blank Shot in any way. (If they did, it would say something like "When using the Point Blank Shot feat...")

In short: you can use Precise Shot at any range.

[Theconiel]

leo1925 wrote:

You should think of the point blank shot feat as a tax in order to get precise shot and nothing more.

I disagree. If you are often indoors, you are much more likely to be within 30' of a target. That +1 to hit and damage is good.

[MrSin]

There are a lot of prerequisites that have nothing to do with the feat's they are required for. The only thing that matters is the text of the feet itself. Precise shot is any range, point blank is just within 30 feet.

[Sean K Reynolds]

"How to qualify for this feat" is one chunk of rules, "how to use this feat" is a different chunk of rules. If the how-to-use chunk doesn't reference the how-to-qualify chunk, then the how-to-qualify chunk doesn't determine whether or not you can use it.

So: Power Attack is a prereq for Cleave. Can you only use Cleave if you're using Power Attack? No. Likewise with PBS and Precise Shot.

Also, I'm moving this thread to the Rules Questions board. :)