how does lore keeper and mindchemist interact?

[ohako]

So...

Mindchemist archetype wrote:

Perfect Recall: At 2nd level, a mindchemist has honed his memory. When making a Knowledge check, he may add his Intelligence bonus on the check a second time. Thus, a mindchemist with 5 ranks in Knowledge (history) and a +2 Intelligence bonus has a total skill bonus of +9 (5 + 2 + 2) using this ability. The mindchemist can also use this ability when making an Intelligence check to remember something. This ability replaces poison use.

Oracle of Lore wrote:

Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks.

1. Do you add Charisma twice?

2. Do you add Charisma once and Intelligence once (or twice)?

3. Do you add Charisma once or Intelligence twice, but not both?

[seebs]

I ... huh.

I would probably let you swap charisma in for one, but not two, of the intelligence modifiers. My rationale would be that perfect recall lets you add a second modifier to your check, which is equal to your intelligence modifier, and lore keeper is letting you substitute the modifier used in the base check. So with perfect recall, it's (Ranks + Int) + Int, and with Lore Keeper only, you change (Ranks + Int) to (Ranks + Cha), so I'd combine them to (Ranks + Int) + Cha.

I don't think it's stated either way.

Of course, given the Fury's Fall/Agile Maneuvers ruling, the obvious answer is that you get a single +cha, because if a combination of powers would let you add the same stat modifier twice, you lose one of them even if that makes you worse off from having a special ability. :P

[blackbloodtroll]

Interesting find.

[Carrick]

ohako wrote:

So...

Mindchemist archetype wrote:

Perfect Recall: At 2nd level, a mindchemist has honed his memory. When making a Knowledge check, he may add his Intelligence bonus on the check a second time. Thus, a mindchemist with 5 ranks in Knowledge (history) and a +2 Intelligence bonus has a total skill bonus of +9 (5 + 2 + 2) using this ability. The mindchemist can also use this ability when making an Intelligence check to remember something. This ability replaces poison use.

Oracle of Lore wrote:

Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks.

1. Do you add Charisma twice?

2. Do you add Charisma once and Intelligence once (or twice)?

3. Do you add Charisma once or Intelligence twice, but not both?

Lore Keeper says that you may use charisma in place of intelligence. But Perfect Recall does not say it works with charisma at all. As such, you can either add double intelligence per Perfect Recall, or single Charisma per Lore Keeper. (note that Lore Keeper is not mandatory)

[blahpers]

There was a ruling? Anybody got a link? I like to know what rules to ignore.

[ohako]

seebs wrote:

I ... huh.

I would probably let you swap charisma in for one, but not two, of the intelligence modifiers. My rationale would be that perfect recall lets you add a second modifier to your check, which is equal to your intelligence modifier, and lore keeper is letting you substitute the modifier used in the base check. So with perfect recall, it's (Ranks + Int) + Int, and with Lore Keeper only, you change (Ranks + Int) to (Ranks + Cha), so I'd combine them to (Ranks + Int) + Cha.

I don't think it's stated either way.

Of course, given the Fury's Fall/Agile Maneuvers ruling, the obvious answer is that you get a single +cha, because if a combination of powers would let you add the same stat modifier twice, you lose one of them even if that makes you worse off from having a special ability. :P

I read some threads on that Fury's Fall/Agile Maneuvers thing...but, I didn't actually find out what the ruling was. Can you give a link to where the rules team makes a ruling on that one? Rather than people sniping each other and there's a thread with like 60 'faq asks'?

[Quintain]

You would use charisma + intelligence.

The charisma replaces the first intelligence bonus for Lore Keeper, and Perfect recall adds an additional intelligence bonus.

People are treating this like criminal law instead of using common sense.

[Bane Wraith]

Since both abilities claim you "may", and the wording on perfect recall seem to associate the Int bonus as being the exact same nature of the innate int bonus every creature gets, it seems you can go either way; Intelligence once, Intelligence twice, Charisma once, or Charisma twice.

I would personally read Lore Keeper as a bit of a "toggle", and disallow replacing only one instance of the modifier though. I don't see any reason why one would anyways; Either one is higher than the other or it isn't.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

The way I'd read this is:
Normally Knowledge: +Int
Just Lorekeeper: +Cha
Just Mindchemist: +Int then +Int
Mindchemist + Lorekeeper: +Cha then +Int

[VRMH]

As far as I know you may use/stack/apply your abilities in whichever order is most beneficent to yourself, unless there's a specific rule saying otherwise.
Although I can't recall where that rule came from...