The party for our RotRL campaign is set as follows: female human fighter, male elf wizard, male Halfling cleric & male dwarf rogue.
For this thread, I would like to focus on the dwarf. Specifically, I'm looking for 1) background ideas to help the player, and 2) solid build ideas for this AP.
Our initial brainstorm came up with more of a brute rogue, using the following stats (25pt buy):
STR 14, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 10
Not a big fan of "dump" stats, but I could see dropping CHA to 8-9 since he's not the party face. Kept the higher DEX, as I feel it will help more things (AC, initiative, ranged, rogue skills, etc) than the STR will (melee & climb/skill are about it).
Role will be more party scout/iconic rogue skills/2ndary melee support.
I've played rogues before that & had issues at higher levels overcoming DR when armed with light weapons, so I'm intrigued by the idea of using the dwarven waraxe. Since it does a D10 with +2 STR, the damage would be very solid, especially on a crit. Add in the precise damage, & he could be pretty solid in battle - and he'd also be far less feat intensive than a TWF build.
At 1st, he will probably be using a light crossbow. He could switch to composite short bow for the +2 damage - along with PBS & sneak attack, he'd still be able to get in a good shot or two before he'd have to move off & try to re-engage with stealth/flanking. Or, he could stick with the crossbow, using rapid reload & PBS. Either way, it's not the focus of the pc.
Background-wise, we're really struggling with how a dwarf ends up a rogue. I don't allow evil alignments in my game (just too much trouble), but neutral would be ok. Dwarven greed would seem to be a logical tie-in...
Any/all help would be really appreciated. The only point to remember is the class/race are fixed, although archetypes are possible. Thanks!
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Have him be the nephew of Volioker Briskalberd, the local dwarven locksmith (who is also part rogue). He's been apprenticed for some time, and is there to help out during the first events.
As to overcoming DR, there are some seriously aggressive crossbow related feats that do that. APG, I think? Possibly UC.
Waraxe is good, but consider kukri's. While they don't inflict a lot of damage, they have a good crit range, and with two-handed fighting or the knife specialist archetypes for rogues, they can be a mean "death of a thousand cuts" thing.
Briskalberd has some definite possibility. The pc could have learned from him, as well as from Savah (who operates the armory, & has some rogue as well), since his uncle wouldn't teach him some of the other rogue abilities - he's not fond of thievery, according to the guide...
Thanks!
Waraxe is good, but consider kukri's. While they don't inflict a lot of damage, they have a good crit range, and with two-handed fighting or the knife specialist archetypes for rogues, they can be a mean "death of a thousand cuts" thing.
I think I'll stay more with the waraxe. The player is my 10yr old son, & I don't want him to get frustrated that he isn't doing enough damage as the game progresses. Plus, he'll have better chances to hit using the waraxe as opposed to the TWF penalties early on, when he doesn't have Weapon Finesse or any BAB to offset...
A Rogue shouldn't be worrying about the weapon, it's their sneak attack that really starts to do the damage, especially at higher levels.
Have a look at the Rogue talents, things like Surprise attack, Snap shot & the Sniper's eye talents mean your rogue is getting plenty of sneak attacks.
If you're still looking for a weapon for him, go for the weapons with the larger crit multipliers, our Rogue always carries a heavy pick for coup de grace attacks.
Might take a few feats but sneak attacks with a weapon that does 4X crit damage can really hit the high numbers.
DBH
I'd also drop dex to 16 and wis to 12 or 10 and put the points on int.
Rogues need all those skill points!
DBH
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I'll second Briskelberd, if only because that's more or less the route I went with the gnome "rogue" in my group. He's the son of a locksmith who went with his uncle to Sandpoint to help him open a new shop in that city two years before the start of the campaign. Things haven't been going well, mostly because Uncle Fizban didn't do market research in the town before packing up and heading there. Most people there have been happy with Briskelberd's locks, and the shop's been flagging. He had a certain set of skills, and knew he could go into burglary, but that wasn't his style. Tomb raiding, though, that's much more legit!
I actually played a dwarven rogue through much of LG, back when rogues were crap. Listen to DBH - the weapon you use rapidly becomes inconsequential. It's the sneak attack that kills. My dwarf didn't have an amazing Dex at all, I think I capped it at 14 or so. I pumped all my bonuses into Str, giving him a Str 20 or so by the end of that campaign. He was competent in fights, and lethal if he was able to get into sneak.
The big problem he'll have is maneuverability. Rogues need to be able to get where they need to be on the battlefield, and that 20' move is harsh. Acrobatics means he'll only have 10' to adjust into a flank, which often might not be enough. I got around that with boots of speed, which gave me more than enough movement to get where I needed on the battlefield.
Background-wise, we're really struggling with how a dwarf ends up a rogue. I don't allow evil alignments in my game (just too much trouble), but neutral would be ok. Dwarven greed would seem to be a logical tie-in...
You seem to be thinking of a rogue as being a 1e thief. They fill the same function (steath, climb, open locks, backstab, etc) but there's no earthly reason why a rogue need be a thief or evil. My rogue PC is a private eye. Another could be a diplomat, scout, circus acrobat or merchant. Look at what skills he has and take it from there.
I'll be the 1st to admit I've only recently gotten back into the game (hello 2nd edition, anyone?!). I completely get that he doesn't have to be evil. I also don't/didn't have anything against him not specifically being a thief. I was just putting all that out there to help with direction for the background ideas.
The game is with my family, & we've decided for fun to go 'old school' - the 4 original classes, the 4 original races. That means my son has to be either a dwarf or a halfling for his rogue (elf & human are already taken). I pointed out that the halfling would be pretty iconic itself, but he liked the dwarven greed & the darkvision - I wasn't gonna argue if it made him happy. His brother is taking the cleric & agreed to use whichever race was left.
I'll have to re-examine the weapon choices & get back to you - I have to work in the morning...
But thanks for making me think about it!
OK, did some work looking @ various weapon options, & talked to both of my sons (the one playing the pc, & his older brother, who is very game-knowledgeable). We decided to stick with the dwarven waraxe. Partly for flavor, but we just really don't see it being a bad choice, given he will likely end up in the occasional straight-up melee.
As far as background goes, I've worked up that he is the nephew of Briskelberd, sent by his family in Janderhoff to learn the locksmithing trade. That provided the basis of his training as a rogue. The rest was completed by Savah, who took a liking to gruff young dwarf & decided to (discreetly) teach him the rest of his rogue training. However, included was an understanding that he wouldn't steal from the local townsfolk, as he might eventually get caught & lead the authorities to her for teaching him - definitely bad for business.
Also, she doesn't want to take the chance of ending up on Briskelberd's bad side, as he would be upset about his nephew sullying the family name with petty thievery - he doesn't like thieves' due to some unpleasant encounters with the local Sczarni thugs. He's the best locksmith in town, & she doesn't want him to cut her as a customer.
This leaves our young dwarf eager for a taste of adventure as well as a chance to try his talents outside of training as the scenario starts...
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions, thoughts & advice - it's all very much appreciated, whether I used it or not.
~Dave
Well, the axe does allow sneak attack damage - there's nothing in the rules stating "only light piercing weapons" that I saw. It's just that the sneak attacks will only happen when flanking a foe or during the surprise round. If he goes with two-weapon fighting and has a light weapon in the other hand (dagger), then technically he can feint with the axe in his first attack if going with a Two-Weapon Feint Feat build.
Well, the axe does allow sneak attack damage - there's nothing in the rules stating "only light piercing weapons" that I saw. It's just that the sneak attacks will only happen when flanking a foe or during the surprise round. If he goes with two-weapon fighting and has a light weapon in the other hand (dagger), then technically he can feint with the axe in his first attack if going with a Two-Weapon Feint Feat build.
That's the best/clearest explanation I've seen yet for why to consider a TWF build. Thank you.
I suppose he could wield a dagger in the 2nd hand. I've never tried to build a two-weapon feint build before - what feats would you use, & how do you run it (mechanically)? Could he feint with the dagger/light weapon & then attack with the axe for more damage instead?
It would fit into the character concept ok, since a good part of his training came from Savah, who's got multi-class fighter/rogue levels... she would be able to teach him a strategy like that to take greater advantage of the precise damage. He'd also be able to switch to two-handed mode with the waraxe for more damage when needed (for example, opponent is immune to precise damage).
What you'd do is go with the following:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Possibly Double Slice as it gives full strength damage with the off-hand Two-Weapon Feint
When he is up to a +6 to hit, then he'd take Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Also, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
This would basically give him four attacks a round, one of which was used to Feint.
As for feinting with the off-hand... that is up to you as the GM. You can rule that he can do that if you want.
By the way, the handaxe is a light weapon, so if he wants to go the full Dwarven route, then go Battle Axe, Hand Axe. ;)
Here's some modified stats for consideration:
STR 15, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 12, CHA 11
The idea here was to 1) remove the CHA penalty which would hurt his ability to Bluff, and 2) increase INT to allow the Combat Expertise, leading up to the Improved Two-Weapon Feint. It also gives him the extra skill point to throw into Bluff or Sense Motive (help prevent falling for a feint himself).
According to the PRD, dwarves are only proficient with battleaxes, warhammers & heavy picks (along with dwarven weapons). He doesn't get the handaxe as a rogue, either. I've been toying with a house rule giving dwarves proficiency with all axes, hammers & picks - I don't see where it should be that unbalancing to gameplay, and it makes sense for the race. That would allow him to use a waraxe & a handaxe - I'd go with the waraxe, since he can use it one-handed as a martial weapon, and it does a D10, as opposed the battleaxe's D8.
Handaxes are simple weapons; rogues get proficiency with all simple weapons (and a few others). Your PC is a rogue. Ergo, your PC is proficient in handaxe.
Actually, they're light melee weapons :/
Yeah, the handaxe is not a simple weapon - it's martial. So my point stands...
oops, you're right. Where did I get that from?
Mind you, it's a very sensible thing to house rule for dwarves.
That's what I thought. Any thoughts on my adjusted stats?
I like dwarven maulaxes for dwarf rogues. He'd have to drop a trait to get proficiency in them so it probably isn't the best min-max build though