Exploit weakness and epic DR

[lazar]

The 4th level ability of the Martial Artist monk archetype is what I am questioning.

Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object’s hardness or the target’s CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object’s DR or hardness. A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.

My player brought out that it over comes DR/epic (as using the mythic rules some summoned critters have DR 5/epic at low levels). I however have a severe problem with a 4th level ability overcoming DR/epic, when nothing in game yet does so. Anyone know for sure if this applies to all damage reduction, or just the normal non-epic ones?

[Rynjin]

It applies to all DR. It has no qualifiers.

However, you seem to be stuck on "4th level ability" and ignoring a few factors.

1.) Epic DR is rare. As-in, only one creature I can think of (non-Mythic) has Epic DR. The Tarrasque.

2.) These creatures are generally high CR.

3.) As a result of the above, this ability is unlikely to work on them at level 4, or even level 10. It requires a check, DC 10+CR, based off your Wis modifier (not a skill check or something that can be easily boosted).

So, let's go back to the Tarrasque. Assuming the 4th level character somehow poses a threat to the Tarrasque (he doesn't in the slightest, even without his DR, but let's say).

The Tarrasque is CR 25. That's a DC 35 Wis check...entirely impossible for the character to succeed on without having 40 Wis and rolling a 20 (unlikely in even 20th level Monks twinked to the nth degree, impossible for a 4th level character).

More realistically, the best a Martial Artist can hope to make is a DC 25-ish check on a 20 (20 Wis, CR 15 enemy) without sacrificing other stats to such a degree that his hits are useless even discounting the DR.

As for low level Mythic critters...who cares? Should he pass his check, he has a slight advantage over the rest of the party when fighting them, no more unbalancing than the guy who has a hammer when everyone else has slashing weapons when Skeletons show up.

Even then, IIRC, Mythic characters ignore DR/Epic anyway, don't they? I'm a bit fuzzy on those rules.

Regardless, in the long run it's inconsequential.

[Squeakmaan]

The martial artist also gets to add their level to the check. So they can realistically expect to succeed more often than you're suggesting. So a +5 wisdom modifier means a minimum of a 9 on the check and a maximum of 45. My houserule is that you actually need epic, or mythic, to get through DR/Epic. So no paladin smites or exploit weaknesses will help there.

[Roberta Yang]

Phew, I was worried about monks having some sort of unique competence there for a moment. Good thing we nipped that in the bud.

[Caderyn]

Exploit weakness bypasses DR/- which is better than DR/epic anyway so I see no reason why it would not work.

The check is fairly easy to make after about level 6 if you assume 18 wisdom you are basically rolling a d20 vs their CR,

[Rynjin]

Squeakmaan wrote:

The martial artist also gets to add their level to the check. So they can realistically expect to succeed more often than you're suggesting. So a +5 wisdom modifier means a minimum of a 9 on the check and a maximum of 45. My houserule is that you actually need epic, or mythic, to get through DR/Epic. So no paladin smites or exploit weaknesses will help there.

Whoops. My fail there.

Regardless, it ain't a big deal.

[Egrek]

Wow yeah past DR/- I hadn't realized that.

That's really powerful.

Then again they do lose a lot of good powers by not having a Ki Pool (no Qinggong - which is a shame!) and no natural magic hands! So without it they can affect nothing with DR!

It also means against some of the scarier foes, they have to use their 'swift' action each round to damage things. Which means no bonus from other skills, styles etc.

...we'll see - there seem to be a lot of choices for swift actions!

[KainPen]

it also only works on 1 target for 1 round.then you have to spend the swift action all over again. it not as powerful as you think. If you have 3 creatures, fighting the party it can only use the ability on one of them all they others still have there dr. It really eats away at the swift action Action economy. This prevents monks from using style feats if they have them and a lot of other monk ability as well as mythic ones.

[EvilPaladin]

It also requires the monk to not be able to use Ki Pool points for things like Barkskin or extra Attacks, because they give that up.

[Egrek]

I had noticed, especially for monks, the abilities are all swift and/or immediate, so a number of choices need to be made! Martial artist is the only choice for barbarian multi class!

[blahpers]

Yeah, show me a situation where the martial artist having this ability actually imbalances or ruins an encounter before getting too bent out of shape about it. A 4th-level monk will get stomped by pretty much anything badass enough to have DR/epic regardless of whether the monk can bypass that DR.