Tiger damage dice, is there an error on the online reference site?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hello everyone, I am in the process of creating a druid for a friend's Pathfinder Campaign and I believe that I have found some inconsistency with the rules on the Tiger entry in the Monster Index.

The Tiger ( http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/tiger.html ) is listed as dealing 1d8 points of damage per claw attack and 2d6 points of damage per bite attack, however this does not relate to the claw and bite entries in the universal monster rules underneath Natural Attacks By Size for Large Creatures ( http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html ). In addition, the Tiger is also listed as having the Weapon Focus (Claw) feat ( http://paizo.com/prd/feats.html#_weapon-focus ), but that does not appear to be in effect in the listed damage roll. The tiger has a strength of 23, which is a bonus of +6, if Weapon Focus was in effect, shouldn't the claw damage be 1d8+7 instead of 1d8+6?

This has lead me to believe that there might have been a bit of a translation error from the correctly listed 3.5 entry for the same creature ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm ) which lists the creature as having Improved Natural Attack (Claw) and Improved Natural Attack (Bite) to increase the weapon damage dies respectfully from 1d6 to 1d8 and 1d8 to 2d6. As these feats have effectively remained unchanged ( http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html#_improved-natural-attack and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack ), it has lead me to believe that instead of having Weapon Focus (Claw) the Tiger entry on the Pathfinder Reference should have Improved Natural Weapon (Claw) and Improved Natural Weapon (Bite).

I apologise for my long-winded argument, but this becomes relevant when using the druid Wild Shape ability, in which a character adopts the form and attacks of a target animal, but not the target animal's feats, meaning that a druid who adopts a Tiger's form would be doing much more damage than they should be for their size category.


Weapon Focus affects your attack roll, not damage. It makes the claws more likely to hit so they're correct at 1d8+6. Regarding the damage dice, the chart you reference is for reference purposes and default only. Individual creatures may vary from that and, when they do, you go with what's in the stat block because specific trumps general. Generally, a large creature's Bite does 1d8 and their claws do 1d6. But tigers are special; they have larger claws and more powerful bites even compared to other large creatures.

Sczarni

You will find many creatures that do not match the chart for Natural Attacks in the Universal Monster Rules section. This is an example of a "specific case trumping the general rule".


This is by no means a FAQ candidate. Specific trumps general. Tigers get better stuff because tigers kick ass.


I don't think you should be referencing the Tiger prd creature for your druid companion, check to see if the stat progression matches the list of available companions under the druid class.

Grand Lodge

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Ipslore the Red wrote:
This is by no means a FAQ candidate. Specific trumps general. Tigers get better stuff because tigers kick ass.

They're GRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTT?


If a Tiger is naturally proficient with its bite and claws, then why shouldn't a druid who shape changes into a tiger be proficient with those attacks as well? Even if its not natural the first time the druid becomes the tiger, shouldn't it start to become easier and more proficient the more the druid uses the form? So say after the 10th time he uses the form, he should feel very comfortable as the tiger, and using the tigers attacks.


Darthslash wrote:
If a Tiger is naturally proficient with its bite and claws, then why shouldn't a druid who shape changes into a tiger be proficient with those attacks as well? Even if its not natural the first time the druid becomes the tiger, shouldn't it start to become easier and more proficient the more the druid uses the form? So say after the 10th time he uses the form, he should feel very comfortable as the tiger, and using the tigers attacks.

When a Druid Wild Shapes he IS proficient in all natural attacks of that form though.


Kahai wrote:

Hello everyone, I am in the process of creating a druid for a friend's Pathfinder Campaign and I believe that I have found some inconsistency with the rules on the Tiger entry in the Monster Index.

The Tiger ( http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/tiger.html ) is listed as dealing 1d8 points of damage per claw attack and 2d6 points of damage per bite attack, however this does not relate to the claw and bite entries in the universal monster rules underneath Natural Attacks By Size for Large Creatures ( http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html ). In addition, the Tiger is also listed as having the Weapon Focus (Claw) feat ( http://paizo.com/prd/feats.html#_weapon-focus ), but that does not appear to be in effect in the listed damage roll. The tiger has a strength of 23, which is a bonus of +6, if Weapon Focus was in effect, shouldn't the claw damage be 1d8+7 instead of 1d8+6?

This has lead me to believe that there might have been a bit of a translation error from the correctly listed 3.5 entry for the same creature ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm ) which lists the creature as having Improved Natural Attack (Claw) and Improved Natural Attack (Bite) to increase the weapon damage dies respectfully from 1d6 to 1d8 and 1d8 to 2d6. As these feats have effectively remained unchanged ( http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html#_improved-natural-attack and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack ), it has lead me to believe that instead of having Weapon Focus (Claw) the Tiger entry on the Pathfinder Reference should have Improved Natural Weapon (Claw) and Improved Natural Weapon (Bite).

I apologise for my long-winded argument, but this becomes relevant when using the druid Wild Shape ability, in which a character adopts the form and attacks of a target animal, but not the target animal's feats, meaning that a druid who adopts a Tiger's form would be doing much more damage than they should be for their size category.

There's no error. Weapon Focus does not add to damage. The damage dice are correct for tigers--in general, natural attacks need not--and often don't--match the chart.

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