Versatile performance vs feint

[Atrian]

I'm wondering: versatile performance oratory can be used to avoid a feint?
I mean the CD is base on sense motive, and is a simplification of a opposed skill check, so I set the CD of the feint 10 + skill oratory?

[blahpers]

I initially thought not, but . . .

Versatile Performance (Ex) wrote:

At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.

The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).

Yes, it should work. It doesn't mention anything about only working during skill checks--it replaces the usual bonus whenever the bard wishes, full stop.

[Scavion]

Atrian wrote:

I'm wondering: versatile performance oratory can be used to avoid a feint?

I mean the CD is base on sense motive, and is a simplification of a opposed skill check, so I set the CD of the feint 10 + skill oratory?

You'd still technically need to be trained in Sense Motive I believe.

[Makarion]

Scavion wrote:

Atrian wrote:

I'm wondering: versatile performance oratory can be used to avoid a feint?

I mean the CD is base on sense motive, and is a simplification of a opposed skill check, so I set the CD of the feint 10 + skill oratory?

You'd still technically need to be trained in Sense Motive I believe.

Why? Sense Motive can be used untrained, after all.

[CrazyGnomes]

The trained/untrained isn't a restriction on Sense Motive, it's part of the text of feint. If you are trained in Sense Motive, the DC is 10 + Sense Motive bonus (or Perform (oratory/sing) in this case) if it's higher than 10 + BAB + Wisdom. If you're not trained in Sense Motive, you have to use the latter.

Scavion is saying that while Versatile Performance lets you swap your oratory/sing bonus for your Sense Motive bonus, technically you still aren't trained in Sense Motive, which is what matters for feint. But that's easily resolved by one point in Sense Motive and then maxing your Perform skill of choice.

[blahpers]

Technically correct.

[Atrian]

Thank people. That help me a lot

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

CrazyGnomes wrote:

The trained/untrained isn't a restriction on Sense Motive, it's part of the text of feint. If you are trained in Sense Motive, the DC is 10 + Sense Motive bonus (or Perform (oratory/sing) in this case) if it's higher than 10 + BAB + Wisdom. If you're not trained in Sense Motive, you have to use the latter.

Scavion is saying that while Versatile Performance lets you swap your oratory/sing bonus for your Sense Motive bonus, technically you still aren't trained in Sense Motive, which is what matters for feint. But that's easily resolved by one point in Sense Motive and then maxing your Perform skill of choice.

I disagree. It is clear that Versatile Performance is intended to give you all the benefits of having been trained in the alternate skill.

Would you similarly rule that a Bard using Perform (wind) or (percussion) under Versatile Performance couldn't actually Handle Animal, unless they had actually put points in it? I hope not.

it is clear that Versatile Performace is intended to completely obviate the need for the substituted skills, and you should play it that way.

[blahpers]

Great, so, you have an interpretation of RAI. Don't be surprised if there's table variance.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

James Jacobs wrote:

Basically... I think of it as basically transplanting your ranks in the perform skill directly into the two other skills as "phantom" ranks that overlap with any ranks you currently have in those other skills. You take the higher of the two and go from there.

I'll take James' interpretation to back up my argument here, that it is as if those Perform ranks of yours were ranks in the other skills.

Old Thread

[Honorable Goblin]

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Basically... I think of it as basically transplanting your ranks in the perform skill directly into the two other skills as "phantom" ranks that overlap with any ranks you currently have in those other skills. You take the higher of the two and go from there.

I'll take James' interpretation to back up my argument here, that it is as if those Perform ranks of yours were ranks in the other skills.

Old Thread

Just be aware that JJ has repeatedly stated that he is not the "rules guy" (sometimes going out of his way to do so), so some people are likely to take his opinions with a grain of salt.