Full attack S.A ever?
+ moonlight stalker master: 30% miss all the time?
Full attack S.A ever?
Yes provided you also have deceitful, skill focus, and skill mastery.
Note though, you don't have a cloak of resistance.
oh sorry, i´m a little lazy to type at the phone.
i´m pretty sure that this works. The "?" is just if someone has other view. What i want to discuss are the possibles builds with this combo and how that make rogue live more easy.
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i´m pretty sure that this works. The "?" is just if someone has other view. What i want to discuss are the possibles builds with this combo and how that make rogue live more easy.
This could be a fun build to play. All the prerequisites will make it rough on the feat-starved Rogue, though, especially as you can't play it with a human (since you need darkvision or low-light vision to get Moonlight Stalker). Here are the relevant feats, repetitive prerequisites suppressed.
Combat Expertise [Int 13]
Improved Feint [Combat Expertise]
Blind-Fight [—]
Moonlight Stalker [Blind-Fight, Bluff 3 ranks, darkvision or low-light vision racial trait]
Greater Feint [Improved Feint, BAB +6]
Moonlight Stalker Feint [Moonlight Stalker, Bluff 6 ranks]
Moonlight Stalker Master [Moonlight Stalker Feint, Bluff 9 ranks]
***
I'd start with the most straightforward approach. Here's a simple 20-point buy build (informed by BrokenZenith's Shanker build and Rogue Eidolon’s Guide to Rogues).
Moonlight Feinter (v1): Half Elf Rogue [Knifemaster]
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 10
Traits: Dirty Fighter, Indomitable Faith
Feats & Rogue Talents:
01 Combat Expertise, Skill Focus (Bluff) [via Half-Elf]
02 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
03 Improved Feint
04 Combat Trick (Blind-Fight)
05 Moonlight Stalker
06 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus [Dagger])
07 Moonlight Stalker Feint
08 Resiliency
09 Greater Feint
10 Crippling Strike
11 Moonlight Stalker Master
12 Opportunist
That’s a lot of resources, though (think of what you'd be giving up). And the build won’t be on-line till lvl 9. Next thing to try would be throwing in a couple levels of Fighter for the feats.
Moonlight Feinter (v2): Half Elf Rogue [Knifemaster] / Fighter 2
01 Combat Expertise, Skill Focus (Bluff) [via Half-Elf]
02 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
03 Improved Feint
04 [Ftr] Two-Weapon Fighting [via Ftr]
05 [Ftr] Blind-Fight, Moonlight Stalker [via Ftr]
06 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus [Dagger])
07 Moonlight Stalker Feint
08 Combat Trick (Greater Feint)
09 Moonlight Stalker Master
10 Resiliency
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Crippling Strike
Much better! Not all the way there, though. Any suggestions on how to improve it?
[EDIT — The real trick for this build, of course, is how to gain concealment in a way that's action-efficient and (as Marthkus points out) doesn't lose the cloak slot (b/c cloak of resistance). I'd probably look into a custom-made ring of blur (like the ring of invisibility), or, for a printed item (e.g. if in PFS), a ring of blinking. The standard action to activate the ring is not great, but at least they'll run for a while.]
[EDIT x2 — The other trick with this build will be swift-action economy, since Moonlight Stalker Feint takes a swift action and Moonlight Stalker Master's dodge ability takes an immediate action: so if you use MSM, you won't be able to MSF on the next round. But since you will have teammates to flank, maybe that's a manageable cost. Don't want to put *all* your eggs into the feinting basket, anyway, and this build has a few too many eggs there already!]
lvl 10(or first advance talent) should be reserved for skill mastery so that you can take 10 on bluff checks. Which means you auto-feint.
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lvl 10(or first advance talent) should be reserved for skill mastery so that you can take 10 on bluff checks. Which means you auto-feint.
That's a good choice for sure. Not sure whether I'd take it before Crippling Strike, but I've never played a feinting rogue before, so I don't have a good sense of how much that'd be needed.
Inclining me against grabbing it first: by that point (lvl 12 for the Rog/Ftr), the guy would have a +21 Bluff to feint [= 12 ranks + 0 Cha + 3 class skill + 6 skill focus], which looks pretty good to me and I'm cautious of relying too heavily on feint.
Still, grab Skill Mastery Bluff, Acrobatics, UMD, Escape Artist, and one other (which one? perception?) would be a nice boost to reliable combat effectiveness. Actually, looking at that list I'm now thinking Skill Mastery might be an excellent ASAP choice for this build ... Thanks for the suggestion!
In addition to Skill Mastery there's also the Half Elf racial favored class bonus, which I'm not sure is worth the HP sacrifice but could grab him another +5 Bluff to feint (along with +5 Diplomacy to gather information).
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Race Traits: Native Outsider, Darkvision, Skilled (+2 Bluff, Stealth), Fiendish Resistance (resist cold, electricity, fire 5), Maw or Claw (bite), Prehensile Tail
Traits: Dirty Fighter, Indomitable Faith
Feats & Rogue Talents:
01 Combat Expertise
02 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
03 Improved Feint
04 [Ftr] Two-Weapon Fighting [via Ftr]
05 [Ftr] Blind-Fight, Moonlight Stalker [via Ftr]
06 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus [Kukri]) [*Assume for other Ftr build; I missed that*]
07 Moonlight Stalker Feint
08 Combat Trick (Greater Feint)
09 Moonlight Stalker Master
10 Resiliency
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Perception, UMD)
Compared to Half-Elf Build
Pros: +1 attack when full attacking (bite, though at -5); darkvision instead of low-light vision; resistances
Cons: lose Skill Focus (Bluff) and get +2 racial bonus instead. That's a loss of -4 at level 10 (+6 Skill Focus v. +2 tiefling racial bonus), which hurts the feinting and makes Skill Mastery a required first-choice advanced rogue talent. And that's supposing the Half-Elf build has spent the favored class bonus toward HP rather than toward Bluff/Diplomacy boost. Is it worth the trade-off?
Have you considered a Fighter 2 (lore warden) dip? That'll take care of Combat Expertise. A dip into cleric or inquisitor (darkness domain) will take care of Blind Fight and put a few tricks up your sleeve.
You can use Half-elf favorite class for bonus on bluff.
edit: Headband of ninjitsu is a good choice too.
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Have you considered a Fighter 2 (lore warden) dip? That'll take care of Combat Expertise. A dip into cleric or inquisitor (darkness domain) will take care of Blind Fight and put a few tricks up your sleeve.
Excellent suggestions. Thanks. I'll probably skip the cleric/inquisitor—don't want to lose that BAB—, but Lore Warden is perfect. I'll see what that kicks out.
You can use Half-elf favorite class for bonus on bluff.
edit: Headband of ninjitsu is a good choice too.
Oh, that headband's very nice. Good suggestion. It'll have to wait till after an item to get blur going continually, but it'll definitely go on the list for the build.
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Race Traits: Low-Light Vision, Adaptability, Elven Immunities, Multitalented, Wary (+1 Bluff & Sense Motive)
Traits: Dirty Fighter, Indomitable Faith
Favored class bonus to Half-Elf racial bonus (+1/2 Bluff to feint and Diplomacy to gather information)
Feats & Rogue Talents:
01 Two-Weapon Fighting, Skill Focus (Bluff) [via Half-Elf]
02 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse) [RT]
03 [LW] Blind-Fight [Ftr], Toughness
04 [LW] Combat Expertise [LW], Improved Feint [Ftr]
05 Moonlight Stalker
06 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus [Kukri]) [RT]
07 Moonlight Stalker Feint
08 Combat Trick (Greater Feint) [RT]
09 Moonlight Stalker Master
10 Resiliency
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Perception, UMD)
Race Traits: Native Outsider, Darkvision, Skilled (+2 Bluff & Stealth), Fiendish Resistance (resist cold, electricity, fire 5), Maw or Claw (bite), Prehensile Tail\
Traits: Dirty Fighter, Indomitable Faith
Favored class bonus to hit points
Feats & Rogue Talents:
01 Two-Weapon Fighting
02 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse) [RT]
03 [LW] Blind-Fight [Ftr], Skill Focus (Bluff)
04 [LW] Combat Expertise [LW], Improved Feint [Ftr]
05 Moonlight Stalker
06 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus [Kukri]) [RT]
07 Moonlight Stalker Feint
08 Combat Trick (Greater Feint) [RT]
09 Moonlight Stalker Master
10 Resiliency
11 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Perception, UMD)
Comparison: Tiefling all the way! Now that the Lore Warden has freed the Tiefling build up to grab Skill Focus (Bluff), there's not the clear advantage to the Half-Elf that there was before, and that extra attack from the bite looks like a nice little bonus. Here are the bluff numbers at lvl 1, 6, 12.
Half-Elf 01 Bluff +8 [= 1 rank + 3 cs + 3 sf + 1 Wary + 0 fc]
Tiefling 01 Bluff +6 [= 1 rank + 3 cs + 2 race]
Half-Elf 06 Bluff +15 [= 6 ranks + 3 cs + 3 sf + 1 Wary + 2 fc]
Tiefling 06 Bluff +14 [= 6 ranks + 3 cs + 3 sf + 2 race]
Half-Elf 12 Bluff +27 [= 12 ranks + 3 cs + 6 sf + 1 wary + 5 fc]
Tiefling 12 Bluff +24 [= 12 ranks + 3 cs + 6 sf + 2 race]
So that's not too much of a disadvantage for the Tiefling on the Bluff, and he'll have one extra attack when full attacking from his bite. It'll be at -5 to-hit (secondary natural attack) and -10 sneak-attack damage (not a knife), but it's still another roll of the die! Plus, darkvision's always nice.
The Half-Elf's Elven Immunities, with the bonus v. enchantments, is something I'd take over the Tiefling's resistances, though.
Some comments:
1) With the "blood of dragons" racial trait the human should be able to qualify for moonlight stalker.
2) If you do not want to depend on a item for concealment the arcane bloodrager is the way to go. Come level 4 he can choose to be blurred while raging. That means that you would not have sneak attack 'till later but you still deal nice damage without it.
I played such a guy at level 5 during the playtest. He used his shoulder slot for a cloak of fangs to get his bite attack (5/day).
It was a strength build with power attack. To reduce the penalty of combat expertise (should I use it) I gave him threatening defender.
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1) With the "blood of dragons" racial trait the human should be able to qualify for moonlight stalker.
Excellent. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not very familiar with the UC traits. With a Human, I'd probably pick up the Focused Study and grab Skill Focus (Bluff) at lvl 1 and Skill Focus (Acrobatics) at lvl 8. Not a bad choice at all. I might still prefer the Tiefling or the Half-Elf, though, for all the little bonuses (including the extra trait not needed to grab low-light).
2) If you do not want to depend on a item for concealment the arcane bloodrager is the way to go. Come level 4 he can choose to be blurred while raging. That means that you would not have sneak attack 'till later but you still deal nice damage without it.
Yup, that'd be good, if you're willing to sink the 4 levels.
To reduce the penalty of combat expertise (should I use it) I gave him threatening defender.
I think I'd prefer to keep the save-boosting trait, but that's a good one to know about. Thanks.