If I successfully hit an opponent with a Stunning Fist attempt, and proceed to take advantage of the Monkey Shine feat, can I utilize the Step Up feat to effectively continue using Monkey Shine if the opponent takes a 5-foot step? I'd love to be able to "lock down" an opponent with Monkey Shine & Step Up until they make a move or withdraw action. From what I understand, I would continuously receive an aoo from Monkey Shine if the opponent took a 5-foot step & continuously be able to stay in their space from Step Up.
While I'm on this subject, I'd love it if somebody could also tell me if an opponent could use a ranged weapon against me while I would be inside their space. I'm thinking it would seem strange that a character would be able to use a throwing dagger or bow against me while I would be inside their space and "in their face".
Thanks.
You would need to succeed on another Stunning Fist attempt in order to use Monkey Shine again after the target moves away from you. What you could do is use Step Up/Following Step/Step Up and Strike to get an second AoO when your target moves away (in addition to the one you get from Monkey Shine).
Why would I need to make another Stunning Fist attempt if I never stopped occupying the space he is in? I thought the entire idea of Step Up is that essentially if the opponent only utilizes a 5-foot step, both you and him end in the same relative spacial positions as you were at the beginning of the turn. Step Up dictates that you can use a 5-foot step as an immediate action, and you can perform an immediate action "at any time—even if it's not your turn.", which would logically mean that I can use my 5-foot step simultaneously as an enemy uses his.
This to me seems it would be a GM discretion decision. Yes, the opponent would have to decide first in which direction he wants to take his 5-foot step and I can't predict that, however, I can immediately move with him into that space, and Monkey Shine only ends if he leaves my space. To me this would be a logistics battle with a GM over the English definitions of the words immediately and simultaneously and how they apply to Pathfinder rules.
I would also like to direct your attention to the aoo rules, as I find these to be most helpful in reference to my question.
"An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn)."
-pg 180 Pathfinder CRB
Obviously an aoo is resolved immediately, before the opponent can utilize his move action. This causes me to question the specific time in the combat round that immediate actions are resolved, and if I could use Monkey Shine & Step Up the way I want to.
I would also like to iterate that everything happening in a combat round happens simultaneously within the same 6 seconds. Yes, there is a specific order to follow that makes it play similarly to something like a Final Fantasy game, but visually everything is happening at the same time like in a book or a movie or real life. If my character has a fighting style (monkey style) that is designed to be in an opponents face, would he let him just get away or would he immediately follow him to continue taking advantage of his fighting style? I think the answer is obvious, and I think the rules allow me to do this with GM discretion.
This is obviously an advanced combat maneuver and I don't expect the answer to be black and white.
an immediate action has action economy limitations.. it consumes your swift action next round... so 1/round tops.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Let me check if I've got this straight.
Your turn:
Use Monkey Style
Successfully strike opponent with Stunning Fist.
Spend Free Action to enter opponent's square.
Opponent turn:
Opponent five-foot steps out of the shared square.
? You use Step Up to re-enter opponent's square ?
I don't think that works because Step Up states "so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability".
I don't see this working either - although if they do step away you can simply use Monkey Shine again if use Stunning Fist on your AoO and it works. Unless you'd already used your Stunning Fist of course (e.g. you use it for staggering or fatiguing, instead of stunning).
Otherwise:
Your turn: Monkey Style, Stunning Fist, Monkey Shine into his square.
Opponent's turn: No actions - stunned.
Your turn: Wail on him.
Opponent's turn: Step away (5' or not)
Your AoO: Stunning Fist, step back into square, opponent is stunned.
Your turn: Wail.
Opponent turn: Step away...
Would you not be adjacent to a foe when you're literally inside his square...I think that's just about as adjacent as you can get...again, I think this would end up being GM discretion.
When you are using Monkey Shine your opponent is not adjacent to you. The two of you are sharing the same square. There is a difference.
When you are in the same square with your opponent you cannot use Step Up. Step Up requires the opponent to start in an adjacent square and move 5 feet away. Step Up allows you to take an immediate 5 foot step to maintain melee distance to the target as long as you end up adjacent (not inside) your opponent's square. When the opponent creates the separation by moving away you get an AoO for Monkey Shine but you will need to reapply a Stunning Fist to once again enter the opponent's square.
I personally think it's a matter of interpretation. When you're inside an opponents square, you're still adjacent to them, you're just a lot closer than normal. When I would occupy an opponents square it's not like I'm inside of him (like with a gelatinous cube) and his movement should trigger the Step Up feat as per normal. My character is adjacent to the enemy when he's inside his square.
How do you personally interpret Monkey Shine? Am I standing on top of his head or crawling underneath him? I'm not sure if you have ever plotted out a 5ft. by 5ft. square on the ground in real life, but that is a lot of space for 2 people to fight in, and I interpret Monkey Shine as an in your face fighting style that utilizes close proximity.
Adjacent means next to. If you are inside a square you cannot be next to the same square. There are 8 adjacent squares to whatever square you occupy.
I'm inside the square and still adjacent to the opponent. Picture 2 people fighting in a 5ft. by 5ft. square. I don't cease to be next to the opponent because I'm in his personal space.
Pathfinder does not have facing, it works off of the 5-foot square. If you occupy a 5 foot square you have 8 surrounding/adjacent squares. If you occupy the same square as an opponent you are no longer adjacent to his square, you are in his square.
RAW, I do not think it would work, and so would not work in PFS.
RAI however, it really depends on the leniency of your GM.
If you are making this for PFS, you are more than likely boned, but if not, talk to your GM. It doesn't seem like too broken of a combo to ban in a game that I would run.
I may agree that this is a RAI vs RAW situation, but I personally think it works within the confines of the game and most definitely isn't game-breaking in any way. The only thing I've been shown so far in terms of this combination of feats not working is the implication that if I'm inside the opponents square (which there are few rules to dictate) I am no longer adjacent to him, which logically makes no sense. The feat Step Up is designed with the specific idea that if you are directly beside an enemy and they try to escape with only a 5-foot step, you can immediately move with them if you choose to. There's no reason that a character with these abilities would not effectively be able to use them together.
Obviously Monkey Shine collides and overlaps with some core game rules, which it points out in the feat's definition of the normal rule (Normal: You cannot enter an opponent's space), but that's the idea of feats, special abilities, and spells. Normally, you can't make more than one aoo per turn, Combat Reflexes overrules that. Normally, you can only take a 5-foot step on your own turn, Step Up overrules that. Normally, you can't enter an opponents space, Monkey Shine overrules that.
The ideal end goal of this feat combo in my mind was to simply continue receiving the bonuses from Monkey Shine unless the opponent took a movement or withdraw action to escape my character. It seems strange to me that the bonuses from Monkey Shine are as easily countered as taking a 5-foot step, and I thought Step Up was a quick and easy solution.
I would also like to point out that the rules define stunned and helpless being quite similar although not entirely similar. Monkey Shine may imply this furthermore, by allowing you to enter an opponent's space while they are stunned. What Monkey Shine also specifies is that the character continues receiving the bonuses as long as the opponent doesn't move from the space that he currently occupies, even if he is no longer stunned.
I would like to point out to Midnighter, that yes Pathfinder works within the confines of 2d game tokens, but what is actually happening is very 3d. Also, technically, when you occupy a 5-foot square, you have 26 surrounding/adjacent squares. Think of your character as the centre cube in a 3 by 3 Rubik's Cube. The occurrence of using all those 26 surrounding/adjacent squares is rare, but they are there. Think of something like Final Fantasy Tactics.
Anyways, thanks for the input everybody.
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Welcome to the Rules Questions forum, where you ask a question, get it answered, then disagree and ignore the response anyway.
The simple fact is we work with black-and-white, rules-legality questions.
And by the rules, what you've proposed does not work, even if you can come up with some narrative about why it "feels" right. It's a rules question, not a feels question.
The archetype for kobold fighters gives you step up for free at level 13 and makes it so a creature sharing a square with you is considered adjacent for the purposes of step up. why not just be a kobold?
Gishou wrote: The archetype for kobold fighters gives you step up for free at level 13 and makes it so a creature sharing a square with you is considered adjacent for the purposes of step up. why not just be a kobold? A ton of people play PFS (where Kobolds are not allowed), and even more have characters whose race means more than a statistical bonus in the game's story.
However, excellent find! That archetype would work great for the rules combo discussed in this thread.
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