Two Simple Questions

[DeGhostLeUtra]

I have two questions. I feel they are simple but I have not found a direct answer. The people I play with will squabble over who is right until I have a direct answer.

1) Is there a difference between evade monster and evade encounter, and with that in mind, if a monster is evaded and the monster states that if it is not defeated treat it as undefeated, how will this play out once evaded?

2) Merisiel Role B (Either): When you play a blessing to add to your dexterity check, you may recharge it instead of discarding it.

From everything I have read, my thoughts on question 1 is that if you evade an encounter, you skip the rest of the combat steps including the powers on the card, shuffle the card back into the location deck or put it back in the box as required as if it was never encountered. To me this would mean that the power on the bane means nothing. This came up as a monster we encountered in adventure pack 1. We still beat it in combat but Merisiel player made mention he could have evaded it without the penalty from the monsters power.

The question is whether or not Merisiel could have evaded it with its clause stating that if it is not defeated to treat it as undefeated, and if Caltrops could have evaded it. Caltrops states evade a monster. One argument was Merisiel can evade it since she evades the encounter while caltrops might not since it evades the monster but not the encounter ( before and after damage would still apply). To me both evades are one in the same. Evade is evade no matter what, and the monster specification means you can not use it to evade barriers or boons. And I feel that evading a monster also evades all of its powers. I just need clarification.

Second question I brought up because the player who plays Merisiel feels that any ranged combat check using any blessing to add a die to her combat ranged dex based combat check would have that blessing be recharged once it was used. Another player says that a ranged combat check is not a dex check because he believes that it needs to state "dex based" or "dex based combat check" to be used with a range combat attack. He pointed out that the blessing for dex based combat check as the example saying it would need the exact same wording. I mentioned that it is universal for both combat and noncombat dex based checks.

From Mike's post here, http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7lz?Concerning-the-FAQ-a-ruling-on-traits-and

I believe that any attribute check used in combat or noncombat is treated the same. Merisiel uses a dex based combat check when using a ranged weapon. This would make me agree with player who uses Merisiel in that the blessing would recharge. I would love final clarification.

I would love to point out who is right and wrong. Thank you! :)

[Hawkmoon269]

(1) Merisiel can evade any type of encounter boons or banes as longer as no rule is in effect stating otherwise (i.e. a monster that says it cannot be evaded). An evaded bane is neither defeated nor undefeated and is shuffled back into is location deck (again unless some card's rule tells you to do other wise). Evading nullifies all effects on the monsters card (other than one saying it can't be evaded). This post might help: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gk. Before encounter effects and after encounter effects come later in the encountering a card sequence of steps, so if you evaded the monster you don't apply those effects. The "penalty", so to speak, for evading is the wasted turn.

(2) Merisiel's role card power to recharge a blessing she plays (and only one she plays, not other players) to add to her dexterity check would apply if she was making a combat check with a weapon that instructed her to role her dexterity die (like a shortbow). Merisiel does not have the Ranged skill, though she is pretty good at using weapons with the ranged trait as they tend to be based on dexterity. Her role card makes no mention of the check being combat or non-combat, so it applies in either case. If they wanted it to be non-combat it would have said non-combat. If they wanted it to be combat it would have said combat. It says neither so it applies to any check using her dexterity skill. Basically, if she's rolling HER d12, she could recharge the blessing instead of discard it.

[DeGhostLeUtra]

I guess my question is the timing of evade. I just want a bit more clarification for "If this monster is not defeated, treat it as undefeated"

1) After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it, then go through the following steps in order.

2) Evade the card (optional). If you have a power or card that lets you evade the card you’re encountering, you may immediately shuffle it back into the deck; it is neither defeated nor undefeated.

3) Apply any effects that happen before the encounter, if needed.

4) Attempt the check. If the card is a boon, you may try to acquire it for your deck; if it’s a bane, you must try to defeat it (see Attempting a Check, below). If a bane’s “Check to Defeat” section says “None,” look at the bane’s powers, and immediately do whatever it says there.

5) Attempt the next check, if needed. If another check is required, such as if you played a boon with a check to recharge, or if your bane requires a second check to defeat, resolve it now. Repeat this step until you have resolved all such checks.

6) Apply any effects that happen after the encounter, if needed. Do this whether or not you succeeded at your checks.

7) Resolve the encounter. If you succeed at all of the checks required to defeat a bane, banish it; if you don’t succeed, it is undefeated— shuffle the card back into its location deck. If you succeed at a check to acquire a boon, put it in your hand; otherwise, banish it."

8) Not officially a step for the encounter as posted in the FAQ, but I am putting it here to say the encounter has passed and is over.

My question on Evade. If I am allowed to evade due to the card not saying that I can't evade, do I go from step 2 to step 8? This is my understanding of the steps of the encounter. If a monster has a power that says "If this card is not defeated, treat it as undefeated" have any effect if the encounter is evaded? I ask because in my understanding, this would fall under step 7 with the resolution of the encounter. If this step is ignored, does this power still come into play with evade? Sorry, just wanted confirmation on this one issue.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand all that you said and that is what I agree with. I just wanted the clarification so that we can end these arguments. I fully expect Merisiel to recharge all blessings used on dex based checks with this power.

[Hawkmoon269]

Ah. Ok. If you evade, the encounter sequence immediately ends at that moment. (Sort of like going to your hypothetical step). But it still counts as encountered and it doesn't mean you don't read the whole card. But you do ignore everything not related to evading. That would include immunity (evasion spells have traits and if a monster is immune to one of those traits it won't work.)

An evaded monster is not defeated. It is neither defeated, nor undefeated, so its not defeated. If a card were to say, "If this monster is not defeated, then X" you would still apply that. But if the card says, "If this monster is undefeated, then X" you don't apply that. So if a card says if this monster is not defeated treat it as undefeated, evading would trigger that power.

Is there a specific card you've encountered that brought about this question? Because no monster card comes to mind that says "if not defeated treat this monster as undefeated." But if it did, evading it would still mean you'd have to treat it as undefeated because you didn't defeat it. But again, I think you are dealing with a non-existent hypothetical here. I might be wrong on that. If so, please post what card you are encountering that is triggering this discussion.

Going back to your original question, the difference between evading a monster (like on Caltrops) and evading an encounter is only that the caltrops is more limited. You can't use caltrops to evade a barrier. But Merisiel can. You can't use caltrops to evade a weapon card like Bastard Sword +1, but Merisiel can (if she wants to leave it in the location for Amiri to come pick up).

[Brainwave]

Yea I'm a little wondering if maybe he's just misread a card, I know I did a few times at first. (I thought you had to do double damage to kill a Zombie the first time we met one...)

Most related abilities that I've seen will say "If X is DEFEATED, treat it as undefeated" (in the case of fighting a ghost without the magic trait for example)

But I haven't seen all the cards so maybe there is something tricky out there, it certainly is possible.

[h4ppy]

Great answers by @Hawkmoon269.

If you're still looking for timing clarifications, try the Turn Sequence Docs and let me know if they help to clarify things.

Also, let me know if they are not clear enough in relation to what happens when you evade and I'll try to improve them.

[DeGhostLeUtra]

The monster was a Henchman from Box 1, Tangletooth. I don't have the card in front of me. Essentially it says that everyone at the location must face Tangletooth. If it is not defeated (by everyone) then it is undefeated.

[Hawkmoon269]

ghostdg wrote:

The monster was a Henchman from Box 1, Tangletooth. I don't have the card in front of me. Essentially it says that everyone at the location must face Tangletooth. If it is not defeated (by everyone) then it is undefeated.

Ah yes. Ok.

Tangletooth's card wrote:

Each character at this location encounters Tangletooth. If any character does not defeat Tangletooth, she is undefeated.

Its not quite "If this card is not defeated, treat it as undefeated." But for what you were asking it has the sample practical outcome. That is sort of like some of the barriers (Zombie Horde for instance) that "nerfs" Merisiel's evasion.

So yeah, if Merisiel is one of the characters that is at that location and evades Tangletooth then Tangletooth is indeed undefeated. That is the clever word play of not defeated and undefeated.