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Hello,
I'm attempting to make a 2handed dex based fighter for my local Pathfinder Society play. I've always enjoyed the idea of an agile fighter with a 2handed sword and good AC. I was first trying to come up with a build to make a multi-hitting katana fighter but I stumbled upon the Elven Curved Blade which allows me to use my Dex instead of Str to hit.
I'm pretty clueless as to what feats I should pick up and so far this is what I have planned out.
Race: Elf
Traits: Armor Expert, Warrior of Old (+2 initiative)
Level 1 Starting Feats: Weapon Focus (Elven Curved Blade), Improved Initiative (+4)
Str: 13 (to qualify for Power Attack, etc)
Dex: 20 (+5 AC, +5 initiative, +5 reflex save, +5 to hit for ECB)
Con: 12 (takes a -2 hit from Elf)
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 7
I plan on picking up Power attack and Furious Focus next. Or maybe I should get Power Attack at lvl 1 and Furious Focus as my free feat at lvl 2?
My damage won't be the highest until I pickup an "Agile" ECB. My goal for the character is to find ways to improve his AC, Possibly provoke AOO's and Retaliate somehow, and improving the crit range and crit confirmation (Critical Focus at lvl 9?) with my ECB.
Please advise me on building my fighter (I usually never play straight melee/fighters so this is a bit new for me). I mainly have a vision of a nearly untouchable Elven fighter that is just moving and whirling a 2handed blade around and striking foes down.
I appreciate your future advice and help, thanks!
Just to let you know you do not get 1.5 x your DEX to damage for using both hands
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Instead of Power Attack use Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike.
Instead of Power Attack use Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike.
Unfortunately Piranha Strike only works with Light weapons. Elven Curved Blade, despite qualifying for Weapon Finesse, is not considered a light weapon.
Piranha Strike (Combat)
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
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I'd highly recommend taking the Lore Warden archetype over the regular fighter. You won't want to wear heavy armor with your high dex, the bonus to maneuvers helps offset your low str, and Know Thy enemy can add to damage.
You also may want to swap Str and Int. Power Attack is overrated imo, and the int will allow you to capitalize on the free combat expertise lore warden gives you.
You really should pick up Weapon Finesse at level 1 if you're going to go this route. I'd also tone down the Dex to 18, which frees up a lot of points to boost your Str to 14 (which gives you +2 damage), and shore up those mental stats (boost Wis to help Will saves/Perception, and/or boost Int to get more skills).
Here's a character I just put together for my girlfriend, which worked quite well in her first scenario:
Elf
14/18/12/14/10/8
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Power Attack
You can Power Attack at +4 for 1d10+6, which is not too shabby at all. You might even consider the Lore Warden archetype, which gives up medium and heavy armor and shields (which you won't use anyway), and gives you more class skills and skill points, plus eventually bonuses for using Knowledge skills to identify your enemies.
Later on you can pick up other basic THW feats like Furious Focus, Cleave, Weapon Focus/Specialization, and so on.
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Any ideas on making this character an "agile flowing" fighter that moves through the battlefield slicing down enemies? I could drop dex down 2 points but later on I'd just be getting an "agile" weapon anyways to increase my damage, I figure I could live with the 1 less dmg until then.
Also, I'm not too worried about my will saves as most fighters would be since I have Elven Immunities which make me immune to sleep and +2save vs enchants. I do know that every little bit helps but not sure it's worth gimping other stats.
I'll have to check Lore Warden out. What book is it from? Thanks for the reminder on Weapon Finesse, looks like I'll have to grab that at lvl 1 and get Power Attack at lvl 2. I kind of like having the +11 initiative bonus at lvl 1 for this character.
I could drop dex down 2 points but later on I'd just be getting an "agile" weapon anyways to increase my damage, I figure I could live with the 1 less dmg until then.
As Lune mentioned, weapon finesse only uses DEX for your attack rolls, not your damage. You still use STR for that.
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Any ideas on making this character an "agile flowing" fighter that moves through the battlefield slicing down enemies? I could drop dex down 2 points but later on I'd just be getting an "agile" weapon anyways to increase my damage, I figure I could live with the 1 less dmg until then.
Also, I'm not too worried about my will saves as most fighters would be since I have Elven Immunities which make me immune to sleep and +2save vs enchants. I do know that every little bit helps but not sure it's worth gimping other stats.
I'll have to check Lore Warden out. What book is it from? Thanks for the reminder on Weapon Finesse, looks like I'll have to grab that at lvl 1 and get Power Attack at lvl 2. I kind of like having the +11 initiative bonus at lvl 1 for this character.
I don't think having a Dex of less than 20 is really "gimping" your character. Even just dropping it to 19 could boost your Str to 14 and your Int or Wis to 12.
And keep in mind that if you get up to 14 Str for +3 damage, the benefit of the agile enhancement is relatively small; you could skip it and go straight to keen instead.
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Hello Philsf31,
I mentioned that I was aware of the low damage but that would only be temporary until I got my ECB enchanted with "agile" which then uses DEX in place of STR for dmg. Problem Solved.
I agree RainyDayNinja that the benefits wouldn't be that great between 14 (+2) and 20 (+5). The main selling point is that I would only need to focus on raising 1 stat with items (DEX) instead of 2 (DEX, STR) and I'd be increasing my AC, Reflex Save, Initiative, Attack Bonus, and Damage all in one as opposed to wasting gold on increasing my STR in the future to up my damage. I think in this case the benefit of adding "agile" to 1 weapon would far outweigh the multiple +str items I'd have to buy if I ever wanted to see my damage output increase noticeably.
I would consider possibly dropping Dex to 19 to up Int for the extra skill points. That would come in handy if I picked up Breadth of Experience (as it seems that typically my local PFS group doesn't always have people with the necessary knowledge checks during sessions)
What feats would you consider for a Dex based fighter build?
Keep in mind that he's also going to be buying Dex enhancers and putting his Levelling points into Dex, more then likely.
You probably need Toughness, given your low Con score...you need the hit points. Likewise, you need to determine what you are going to do with your Favored Class benefit.
You need to procure a Wayfinder with the Ioun Stone that makes you immune to mental effects. Regardless you are probably STILL going to have to get Iron Will, just to have a chance at the non-evil magic which is going to affect you.
Power Attack isn't overrated, it's generally where most damage starts to come from at higher levels. Yes, you need Power Attack. Yes, it's -1/+3 when you initially take it.
As of right now, you're restricted to leather armor if you want your full Dex bonus to AC. Your goal is a suit of Mithril Celestial Mail, which should stay just ahead of your curve for max Dex to AC.
I would take Toughness and Weapon Finesse at level 1. That will give you 14 hp, straight off, and then determine if you want HP or Skill points for FC.
Use the Lore Warden archetype. You give up nothing you don't want to get rid of, and get a lot for it. There's a trait that gives you either an extra +1 AC when using Expertise, or reduces the penalty by -1, either way giving you AC for a trait. You might want to look at that.
Does Glory of Old give you a flat bonus to all saves? I thought it was an uber feat or racial benefit elves and dwarves get.
Determine if you want to be a master of the ECB (Spec tree) or want to be more versatile. You're going for an Agile weapon, which will be key to your later damage.
==Aelryinth
If you are not opposed to multi- classing, two levels of ranger can let you grab power attack without the strength requirement.
That's not a bad idea, although it does set his weapon mastery back.
On the flip side, two levels of ranger lets him use some very useful wands, including CLW, Barkskin, and at later levels flipping his one FE bonus to whomever.
WHile his Dex will let him hit as an archer, low Str means not much damage, unless he gets Deadly Aim.
==Aelryinth
Well, i've been thinking about this myself, and here's what I would do:
Race: Elven
Stats (20 pts)
Str: 13 Dex: 16+2 racial Con: 14-2 racial Int: 10+2 racial Wis: 14 Cha: 9
Class (fighter, lore warden) (not: I would favor ranger myself, but I'll stick to the prereqs)
Traits (armor expert, warrior of old)
1 Weapon Finesse, Power Attack
2 Furious Focus; Lore warden (combat expertise)
3 Toughness
4 Weapon Focus (Elv Curv Blade) (you might be able to start affording agile)
5 Weapon Specialization
That's how I would do it; not so sure how useful it is, but I tried to shore up low defenses (AC is nice, but it dont protect you from most spells). Might be worth considering taking medium armor proficiency to be able to wear celestial armor. Though I've never gotten to such high level in PFS.
Any weapon can be sundered, honestly. His shtick is going to be that his AC is so high it's going to be quite hard to do, and it's not a common tactic. Get a Hardened Adamantium weapon, and/or make it unbreakable, if you're that worried about it.
=+Aelryinth
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Maybe picking up that feat that allows me to get 2 more traits would be worth it? There is a trait that gives +1 AC as someone mentioned, and I'm sure there's another good trait.
Question, I know power attack has a requirement of 13str, but isn't there other feats that also have a 13str+ requirement that I'd not be able to pickup due to low str?
It is unfortunate that ECB doesn't allow 1.5x dex also. I do agree that Ranger would open up for some great wands to use with a 2lvl dip. Would I want to go Ranger 2 then rest of levels into Fighter after?
IMO drop power attack and leave your Str at 10. Focus on Dex, Con and Int. You still have priorities in other areas. I would raise Wis before I'd raise Str for saves. You will not need Str to generate damage. The early levels you will be dealing a lot of damage from just the weapon itself. By mid levels your gear will carry you through until you can get Agile and get further down Lore Warden for damage boosts and get your Kirin Style feats.
None of this needs Str. You don't need to make yourself less accurate to do damage. In fact, I would use Combat Expertise as your stance feats rather than Power Attack, especially with this sort of build. I'm thinking anyone who says that you will not be a damage dealer with this concept needs to reread Lore Warden and Kirin Style.
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Also consider that you are sacrificing a lot for concept here. You could one-hand a Scimitar with Dervish Dance and not have to worry about getting an Agile weapon or STR bonuses.
I prefer a Golarion that includes some Elven warriors that use a Curveblade opposed to a Scimitar.
How boring would it be if every DEX character used a scimitar?
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A rogue dip can give you sneak attack (which will be easy for you to get via flank, if there are 2 melee combatants), more skills, and the ability to disarm magical traps. It gives decent utility for a PFS character, since traps are fairly common and can be troublesome. Bringing a trapfinder character is always helpful for parties.
I'd recommend going vanilla fighter for armor training, and going through with mithral heavy armor (Tatami-Do has highest Max Dex AFAIK) and armor training to get a very High AC.
To fit the thematic idea of your character, consider a Mobile Fighter or Dawnflower Dervish archetype. Both work fine for a agile fighter who moves around the battle with ease.
If you're willing to start with 14 Str, it might be worth considering the Two-Handed Fighter archetype. Getting double your Str mod instead of 1.5 further reduces the need for an Agile weapon.
He wants to play a Dex Monkey, let him play a dex monkey.
You're going to need Power Attack for damage. You're a fighter, you're on the front line, you need to do the damage. At 9th, that'll be +9 damage with every swing, added to a Dex of +6 or +7. You'll still be on the low side, but you'll have a good AC to fall back on, at least, and you can still specialize to raise it further.
Lore Warden for your archetype and Ranger are probably your two best combos. Kirin Style is a possibility, but it's feat intensive and might require also dipping monk, which will further dilute your focus. It's also very skill point intensive to be effective.
If you're limited by PFS, your Dex and Armor Training will probably perfectly match a mithral BP if yOu don't want to go Celestial Armor.
You'll have to decide on the viability of the Kirin style.
==Aelryinth
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Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the feedback and I do think the 14str is a worthy note with 18 dex (including racial). I think Bigdaddyjug presented a really good stat array and I appreciate all of Aelryinth's comments. My con wouldn't be the highest but with Dex being the main focus (raising AC, Reflex saves, and Initiative) I should avoid more hits than others and dodge touch spells (rays, etc) easier than most fighters.
I don't think I'd focus Kirin Style as it seems to be more of a pain than it's worth (feats/requirements). I was wondering if the Moonlight Stalker was worth considering because I could buy a Blur wand or carry some Blur potions to gain the concealment bonus (or I could focus in Stealth maybe?). Seems that would make it even harder to hit me and give a +2atk/+2dmg bonus. Breadth of Experience would be helpful also with all the free knowledge checks. I was thinking Disarming Strike would be great but maybe there's a better one to take?
This would be my 2nd character as my main (highest lvl char) is a level 5 Drunken Master monk. So in short, I'm pretty familiar with D&D and Pathfinder but not familiar with the higher level gameplay (lvl 5-11).
For what its worth, I've looked into Elven Curved Blade finessing quite a bit and I'd definitely go for the Power Attack; I think the idea that 'you aren't going to do the maximum possible amount of damage, therefore you shouldn't bother about your damage' is bad twice over. The unique benefit of the Elven Curved Blade is that it is finesse-able even while getting a two-handed power attack bonus - your weaker base damage makes the extra from power attack far *more* valuable, not less so.
Something that's way out there but just maybe worth considering is that you can wield an ECB in two hands and still use two-weapon fighting if you pair it with monk unarmed strikes. Its a cool concept (IMO) to deliver a two-handed slicing attack, then elbow-slam the guy as a set up to the next slice, and maybe finish with a spinning knee on your two-hand follow-through - a very lightning fast dex fighter style of combat.
You have to invest to make the unarmed strikes worthwhile, but on the upside you're getting a lot of extra attacks in with a standard power-attack & agility return on the offhand (thanks to monk), and needing an amulet of mighty fists isn't that different from needing a second magic weapon on a Two-weapon fighter. Plus, you can grab some cool stuff out of monk archetypes if you aren't flurrying. Maneuver master is pretty slick with free combat maneuvers and maneuver feats, and Master of Many Styles gets really kung-fu really fast.
For what its worth, I've looked into Elven Curved Blade finessing quite a bit and I'd definitely go for the Power Attack; I think the idea that 'you aren't going to do the maximum possible amount of damage, therefore you shouldn't bother about your damage' is bad twice over. The unique benefit of the Elven Curved Blade is that it is finesse-able even while getting a two-handed power attack bonus - your weaker base damage makes the extra from power attack far *more* valuable, not less so.
Something that's way out there but just maybe worth considering is that you can wield an ECB in two hands and still use two-weapon fighting if you pair it with monk unarmed strikes. Its a cool concept (IMO) to deliver a two-handed slicing attack, then elbow-slam the guy as a set up to the next slice, and maybe finish with a spinning knee on your two-hand follow-through - a very lightning fast dex fighter style of combat.
You have to invest to make the unarmed strikes worthwhile, but on the upside you're getting a lot of extra attacks in with a standard power-attack & agility return on the offhand (thanks to monk), and needing an amulet of mighty fists isn't that different from needing a second magic weapon on a Two-weapon fighter. Plus, you can grab some cool stuff out of monk archetypes if you aren't flurrying. Maneuver master is pretty slick with free combat maneuvers and maneuver feats, and Master of Many Styles gets really kung-fu really fast.
Can't two weapon fight with a two handed weapon per FAQ
Can't two weapon fight with a two handed weapon per FAQ
No way... that's some horrible news. Too good for a dex-monkey or something?
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Side question, but doesn't Monk's Flurry of Blows still increase even if you progress in another class?
For example: I took 1 level of Monk, then 8 levels of fighter. Would my FoB's be +6/+6? I guess if it equals out that way then FoB's wouldn't be very helpful though. Fighter would have +9/+4 at level 9.
I believe Durngrun got that right as TWF is out the door but Unarmed Strikes from a monk could be anything (head, elbow, knee, kick, etc) which would work. Just seems if FoB's is calculated as I think it's actually not that good of a difference.
Can't two weapon fight with a two handed weapon per FAQ
I don't want to derail badly here but... are you sure this is true? I checked the FAQ and it says that you can't use armor spikes or etc. as an 'offhand' attack, true enough. But according to the Monk's Unarmed Strike entry:
"A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed."
It seems to me like Monks get a double pass from the problem cited in the FAQ:
"you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks."
Both by RAW and concept it seems totally kosher to me, but I certainly could be wrong.
Off hand is a mechanical term, not your actual hand. It's kind of buried in the equipment section. Pg. 141 light weapons or one handed weapons can be used in the primary or off hand, two hand weapons require both (primary and off) hands. Thus no "off hand" for two weapon fighting.
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It is true that a monk can unarmed strike even if both hands are holding something. I think he was referring to the use of TWF feats. For example, a Drunken Master monk can be wielding a jug of liquor that he's drinking from and still FoB's or US an enemy with his head, elbows, knees, feet, etc. Just about any part of the body is a weapon for a monk.
The thing I'm wondering about is the monk's FoB's progression. If it's how I mentioned earlier I think you're better off just Full attacking as a fighter and hitting twice with your ECB instead of hitting with ECB once then Unarmed Strike once. Plus half the monk's features are missing while wearing armor. One of the few things you'd retain is the nice +saves.
Off hand is a mechanical term, not your actual hand. It's kind of buried in the equipment section. Pg. 141 light weapons or one handed weapons can be used in the primary or off hand, two hand weapons require both (primary and off) hands. Thus no "off hand" for two weapon fighting.
The part I was more indicating (that I edited to bold after the fact, oops) is the 'hands full' exception - it seems to directly give a monk's unarmed a pass around the issue raised in the faq. My bad for not bolding it the first time. I understand that that is one of ambiguous definitions used for 'offhand,' but the way they describe it in the FAQ entry doesn't seem to me to indicate they're thinking of anything but a literal 'offhand.' Good old monk ambiguity...
It is true that a monk can unarmed strike even if both hands are holding something. I think he was referring to the use of TWF feats. For example, a Drunken Master monk can be wielding a jug of liquor that he's drinking from and still FoB's or US an enemy with his head, elbows, knees, feet, etc. Just about any part of the body is a weapon for a monk.
The thing I'm wondering about is the monk's FoB's progression. If it's how I mentioned earlier I think you're better off just Full attacking as a fighter and hitting twice with your ECB instead of hitting with ECB once then Unarmed Strike once. Plus half the monk's features are missing while wearing armor. One of the few things you'd retain is the nice +saves.
The only reason I brought up using a monk level was the one thing that I thought monk would give - using an unarmed strike even though both hands are full of two-handed weapon, thus allowing TWF progression with the ECB + with unarmed strikes. That particular ability (if it exists) isn't predicated on anything but a level of monk, armor doesn't negate it.
There's actually quite a bit you can do with a level of monk archetype that isn't in the least troubled by wearing armor.
After a long and annoying search I found this tidbit:
Description: A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.
Make of that what one will; if it wasn't for the fact that armor spikes directly state that they require a 'regular melee attack (or offhand attack)' to use, then the barbazu beard entry would directly and blatantly contradict what they're saying in the FAQ, which is directed specifically at armor spikes.
Anyhow, I haven't really though hard on whether two-weapon fighting with an elven curved blade and monk unarmed strikes would be a great setup - I just love the flavor, and see definite possible advantages - most specifically what it does for a power attack.
Anybody can make an unarmed strike with their hands full. That is not monk exclusive. You don't even need IUS although without you provoke, deal non lethal, etc. Two weapon fighting involves "off hand" attacks. Now again, this is not a physical hand. An off hand attack is the extra attack you get from two weapon fighting, wether it's an actual weapon in your off hand or an abstracted unarmed strike or blade boot or armor spikes or what have you. However a two handed weapon consumes your primary and your off hand. Therefore you cannot make "off hand" attacks thus no two weapon fighting.
An off hand attack is the extra attack you get from two weapon fighting, wether it's an actual weapon in your off hand or an abstracted unarmed strike or blade boot or armor spikes or what have you. However a two handed weapon consumes your primary and your off hand. Therefore you cannot make "off hand" attacks thus no two weapon fighting.
A barbazu beard can be used as an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use; thus, a warrior could combine use of a barbazu beard with a two-handed weapon.
The text above certainly implies that you CAN combine a two-handed weapon with "an off-hand weapon that requires no hands to use."
That the FAQ would prohibit armor spike offhand attacks is quite plausibly explained by the fact that they specifically compare armor spikes to an armored gauntlet, and state that the problem is that "you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon." In other words, making an attack with armor spikes utilizes a literal hand, or at least some conceptual extension thereof.
I understand where you're coming from with your interpretation of how two-handed fighting works, and its not an illogical position, though it does run into issues with Multiweapon Attack among other things. Is there text that specifically states that a two-handed weapon "consumes" your offhand? (Honest question, not trying to be snarky).
It's been ruled that way as a balance issue, Badbird. Just accept it and roll with it. It was a cheap loophole to begin with, and its been closed.
Hands full is a term that implies carrying something, not attacking in combat. 'Primary hand' and 'off-hand' are terms that actually mean primary and secondary attack limb. If you're an average biped, those are your hands. Even if you use your feet, you're still using up your primary and secondary attack.
The barbazu beard is an exception to the rules because of what it is. It doesn't suddenly make IUS more then it was. Your chin, after all, is not a limb or average striking surface.
==Aelrynth