Grab Ability Clarification on Maintaining Grapple: Is is +4, +5, or +9?

[Moondragon Starshadow]

I can't believe I didn't notice this issue earlier, and I have no idea how to resolve it. In the description of GRAB, it says "Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple."

Now, I get the +4 to start a grapple, but the +4 to maintain a grapple is what is confusing. If you didn't have grab and successfully grapple a target, you get a +5 bonus to CMB to maintain a grapple. So, why just a +4 bonus when you normally get a +5 bonus?

So......does the +4 grab bonus to maintain a grapple actually stack with the +5 bonus to maintain a grapple, making it +9? That seems really high, but why give a +4 bonus to maintain it when the standard bonus is +5 unless it is meant to stack?

Thus, I suppose you could say Grab only provides a +4 bonus (not the +5 because you got a bonus to start the grapple), or you get the standard +5 bonus that everyone gets with grapple since it is higher and overrides the +4, or the special ability adds to the normal bonus and thus it is +9.

Which is it?

[Xathanos]

That is why the Tetori Monk is so OP. It would be +9...

And that's why big things that grab you are so deadly...

[Shfish]

Grab special ability is like having improved and greater grapple feats on steroids. The +5 you refer to is only if they don't break the grapple.
The +4 from grab mentions the maintain part likely to make it clear that you get a bonus to grab and hold them only...any other weird applications of grapple rules would not get the +4. As an example, as written the grab ability does not apply to your CMD vs getting grappled or even for them to break free... As an example to this see the ankehg entry in the bestiary.

[Lord_Malkov]

Yes, they stack. A +4 untyped bonus from Grab and the +5 untyped bonus from grapple are from different sources, and are not typed... so they stack. They also stack with the +2 from Improved Grapple, and the +2 from Greater Grapple.

The thing to remember here is that EVERY check made by a grappler that is not a check to start the grapple, is a check to "maintain".

dealing damage, pinning, tying up, moving the target... these are all options that are made possible by a successful "maintain" check. You can use grapple feats to get multiple checks in a round, so the nomenclature can seem a bit clunky then, but in essence a maintain check is just anything that isn't a check to start or escape. You need to succeed at one such check each round in order to keep the target held after the first round.

The bonus from grapple (the +5) only applies to checks made "in subsequent rounds" which is an important distinction for those who have Greater Grapple or Rapid Grappler.

Anyway, the reason that grab is worded the way it is, is that it does not give you a bonus to checks made to escape a grapple... it only works offensively. The bonus from, say, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver OTOH do work for ALL grapple checks.

And finally, no, Grab does not add to grapple CMD either for avoiding a grapple or for keeping a target from escaping. CMD is actually much more difficult to increase with feats/items/abilities.

But you can stack the CMB quite high.

A druid that shapes into a Huge animal with grab and has: Imp. Grapple, Greater Grapple, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple), Anaconda's Coils Belt, and Powerful Shape will be getting +16 to grapple checks from feats items and size before BAB and Str.

But those same things are only giving him +6 to CMD.

[Moondragon Starshadow]

Thanks everyone for the answers. Merry Christmas.