Ok, I know the warning that, "Every time Dervish Dance is mentioned, James Jacobs kills a goblin."
But my DM & I are trying to sort out how it works with the various Style Feats & are at an impasse. So the Goblins can suck it. Anywho, here is the exchange he & I are having-
My DM:
"As I'm reading the Crane Style description, it says you must enter the Crane Style as a swift action to get the full effects of the feat: "While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1dodge bonus to your Armor Class." Battle Dance takes a move equivalent action to enter into- this leads me to believe that they would be two different styles and thus you would not be able to use both of these effects at the same time. In other words, if you're battle dancing defensively you cannot receive the +1 dodge bonus to AC. Although I can also see a real cool eventual synergy - Dancing Crane Style - like when you become a 10th level dervish of dawn (that's when it becomes a swift action to enter into the battle dance)."
ME:
"I researched the combination & from what I can tell (RAW) it's legal. The gist is that if something was truly an actual style it'd be classified as such; i.e. have 'style' in it's name, be under the 'style' category, or mention that fact in it's description somewhere. Instead "Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, and effects." Also, "it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities."
Finally, all styles are Swift-action activation by their very nature."
My DM:
"Here's my initial reasoning:
The spirit of the styles is that they are a martial art fighting style. The battle dance, in my mind, is a fighting style for particular bards. But since it's not "Far Eastern" they don't use the term "style" with it. Since they both take a declaration and specific action to start receiving the benefits (swift for style, move equivalent for battle dance) it seems to me that they are indeed different fighting styles."
So.
The 10,000gp Question:
Can you (RAW) receive the benefits of being in Crane Style, (or any other Style Feat for that matter) after activating it as a Swift Action, while at the same time being in a Dawnflower Dervish's Battle Dance, which was activated as a Move Equivalent?
It would also help if you can explain whether you've used such a combo as a Player, are a GM, or can point me to something online.
Thanks for your time.
Fighting Styles are feats. There's no indication that I can find that they exist as anything but a feat. The text even indicates as much: "As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies."
Battle Dance is an archetype class feature that alters Bardic Performance. It's not granting you a feat, so therefore it can't be a fighting style by RAW.
As far as I can tell, they stack. You'd use a move action the first round to start your dance, a swift action to start your style, and then can fight defensively to make one standard attack, taking only a -2 penalty to the attack while granting you a +2 (or beyond, depending on level) dodge bonus to AC.
Nothing in the description of Battle Dance indicates that it is a stance or a fighting style, so therefore, by RAW, it is not.
No such restriction exists.
You cannot use more than one Style feat at a time.
You can use Style feats with anything else.
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What's your GM got against bards?
See if you can him into believing that you mix the two styles maybe. The two definitely do stack RAW.
DungeonMastering.com wrote: Ok, I know the warning that, "Every time Dervish Dance is mentioned, James Jacobs kills a goblin." Well, yeah. Half of the adventure paths involve killing goblins at 1st level, and its well-known that James has a Dawnflower Dervish character. I think he mentioned it being one of his favorite bard archetypes, but you'll have to go digging through his thread for that answer.
Quote: My DM:
"As I'm reading the Crane Style description, it says you must enter the Crane Style as a swift action to get the full effects of the feat: "While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1dodge bonus to your Armor Class." Battle Dance takes a move equivalent action to enter into- this leads me to believe that they would be two different styles and thus you would not be able to use both of these effects at the same time. In other words, if you're battle dancing defensively you cannot receive the +1 dodge bonus to AC. Although I can also see a real cool eventual synergy - Dancing Crane Style - like when you become a 10th level dervish of dawn (that's when it becomes a swift action to enter into the battle dance)."
ME:
"I researched the combination & from what I can tell (RAW) it's legal. The gist is that if something was truly an actual style it'd be classified as such; i.e. have 'style' in it's name, be under the 'style' category, or mention that fact in it's description somewhere. Instead "Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, and effects." Also, "it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities."
Finally, all styles are Swift-action activation by their very nature."
Your GM is 100% incorrect. The game very distinctly defines styles; they're special feats with a unifying qualities and traits. By your GM's reasoning, a standard bard couldn't maintain a bardic performance (which Battle Dance is) and be in a stance at the same time.
You can read the rules for Style Feats here, or you can see Chapter 2 of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Combat.
Regardless, you can enter a stance as a swift action and begin a battle dance as a move action on the same round, if you choose to do so. As your bard levels up.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You cannot use more than one Style feat at a time.
Unless you'rea Master of Many Styles , right?
Gaming is absolute proof that there's an exception to every rule.
DungeonMastering.com wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote:
You cannot use more than one Style feat at a time.
Unless you're a Master of Many Styles, right?
[url] http://kcmorris.hubpages.com/hub/A-Guide-to-the-Master-of-Many-Styles-Pathf inder [/url]
Gaming is absolute proof that there's an exception to every rule. Well, I meant normally.
Xaratherus wrote: You'd use a move action the first round to start your dance, a swift action to start your style, and then can fight defensively to make one standard attack, taking only a -2 penalty to the attack while granting you a +2 (or beyond, depending on level) dodge bonus to AC. Gotya.
And then the following round you can Full Attack because "it can be maintained each round as a free action."
I interpret that right?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Well, I meant normally. Right, right. But the link had a cool pic of Bruce Lee & had to give a nod to the Small Phoenix when talking fighting. ;)
DungeonMastering.com wrote: Xaratherus wrote: You'd use a move action the first round to start your dance, a swift action to start your style, and then can fight defensively to make one standard attack, taking only a -2 penalty to the attack while granting you a +2 (or beyond, depending on level) dodge bonus to AC. Gotya.
And then the following round you can Full Attack because "it can be maintained each round as a free action."
I interpret that right? You have that right. You can keep battle dancing until your unable to or you choose to stop maintaining it.
while I agree with the general opinion, there is nothing by RAW stopping you from using battle dance and a style at the same time, your GM is the final arbitrator of what can and can not be done.
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Battle Dance is as much a style feat, as a dagger is a piece of armor.
MrSin wrote: What's your GM got against bards?
See if you can him into believing that you mix the two styles maybe. The two definitely do stack RAW.
lol I know his questioning the synergy (?)isn't because of any issues with bards. (In fact he's integrated a lot of my character's backstory directly into the Runelords plotline). It's more a case of trying to visualize how the 2 melee forms would work together.
And my GM did say he could see an "eventual synergy - Dancing Crane Style." But I didn't follow the reasoning ("when you become a 10th level dervish of dawn it becomes a swift action to enter into the battle dance)" so I wanted to see what other people thought.
I think when we try to simply the complicated things we can end up complicating the simple things.
Appreciate the input everyone. Much obliged.
I wonder: Is it possible your GM is misreading Battle Dance?
When I first glanced at it, my thought was that all the benefits were tied to making a full attack action, including the +1 to attacks and to AC, which would mean you couldn't get everything activated (you'd need a move action to kick in the dance, and you can't do that with a full attack).
No, never mind, that wouldn't work, because you'd still be fine the turn after that even if it was the case (it's not, just ruminating on what your GM might be thinking).
Mixed Martial Arts.
One could use a bit of Capoeira with a bit of Krav Maga.
That's how your DM could envision it.
awp832 wrote: while I agree with the general opinion, there is nothing by RAW stopping you from using battle dance and a style at the same time, your GM is the final arbitrator of what can and can not be done. Absolutely. We call that 'Rule 0' in our group. (Rule #1 is 'Have Fun' as dorky as that sounds)
All of the guys who GM are real good about any arbitration. When he emailed me thinking that, "Crane Style is for unarmed combat only," I just showed him this thread saying otherwise
...and he understood the consensus.
This whole Dance-No Dance conversation with my GM came about because Hero Lab did not give Dervish of Dawn the Dervish Dance feat free, it had to be added manually.
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Dawnflower Dervish and Dervish Dancer, are two different Bard archetypes.
Dervish Dance, is a feat.
Dawnflower Dervish is also a Fighter archetype.
Know which thing you are talking about.
It can be confusing.
Yup. There's also the d20PFSRD monicker 'Dervish of Dawn' to add to the pile.
Thanks for the advice about Capoeira. I've been watching videos; crazy way to fight.
Alexander Augunas wrote: Half of the adventure paths involve killing goblins at 1st level, and its well-known that James has a Dawnflower Dervish character. I think he mentioned it being one of his favorite bard archetypes, but you'll have to go digging through his thread for that answer. Huh. I came across the expression in this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdjd&page=16?Swashbuckler-Discussion#767
...and took the phrase to mean he was sick & tired of people talking about DD. i.e a 'stop bringing this up or I'll take all the goblins out of the game' kinda thing.
But it's actually the opposite: "Nope. Not at all. I invented Dervish Dance. I'm delighted to see it get used and talked about."
He also designed the actual Dawnflower Dervish archetype.
Again, thanks to everyone who posted/offered advice. I'll be showing this thread to my DM after the holidays; he might post something here then.
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