Goblin Squad Member
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Now i was just thinking about combat and the types of things that I find interesting and would enjoy.
The first thing is that I think besides knowing what attack sequence to you being able to hit your target should be an important player controlled skill.
Having said that I think that avoiding targeting would be interesting way to go in combat. Off the top of my head I can think of two examples that basically show what I mean. The first would be Smite and the second would be Wildstar Online. Basically where you attack is based on where you aim, NOT selecting a target and then hitting the skill. So if you are no good at aiming and you aim to the left of the person you miss, if you are good and aim correctly you hit them. This adds the element of player skill and is often called skill shots.
Spells like fireball would detonate at any time they hit anything during their flight or when the player pushes the button again causing it to detonate on command. Wildstar Online shows how you can incorporate several interesting shapes to different attacks which can change the dynamics of skills, if dont correctly it can be cheesy if the shapes are all different just to be different. I do think that the way Wildstar shows enemy attack arcs is a bit much but the general idea is sound.
By adding skill shots to the game you can change the combat system to a more active combat style. By having skill shots dodge becomes not a stat on your character but a skill by the player. You can actually use an evasive roll to make an enemy miss you. A skill like a rogue's evasion could then make it if you are in a roll when you get hit you get half damage, then if you save you further reduce the damage. Improved evasion could be if you were in a roll you now take no damage.
I have enjoyed the active combat systems in various games. I feel that it more fully engages a player into the combat and adds another level of skill that the player can bring into the game. If you take two players, they both are top DPS and can do that well, but one is also able to watch the battlefield and dodge out the way of attacks, he has just demonstrated that he is more skilled than the other player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about those of us with no measurable hand-eye coordination? I've yet to find an FPS-type environment where I provide anything other than a target.
How does your idea mesh with the six-second combat rounds PFO's going to have? I'm uncertain I see the "cooperation" of the two ideas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The issue with that sort of combat system, leperkhaun, is that is favours player higher twitch skill rather than character skill. A player with failing eye sight, RSI or any number of other motor restrictive problems will be no match for an 18 year old with perfect vision and dexterity.
I would rather that 'level 20 rogue' be able to evade a bunch of hits because of their character skill, and not at the ability of the player to double tap a key. Likewise with that 'level 20 ranger' hitting you from 400 yards with their longbow or that 'level 20 fighter' using power attack on a cloth armored merchant.
While I do enjoy some active combat systems, they're generally only where the only 'character skills' are gear unlocks and not an increase in some specific skillset.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not going to happen.
The target/ability bar has really been done to death and i think a lot of people are looking for a new feel.I don't disagree with that. I think there's a huge design space to be explored. We just won't be exploring the one where you aim with player skill and twitch in response to stimuli.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Skill based twitch combat doesn't work well with Pathfinder mechanics such as Base Attack and AC which determine whether an attack hits or misses. And as mentioned, it wouldn't work well with a 6 second timer either. You could certainly make a Pathfinder themed FPS but PFO isn't going to be that.
Age of Conan has melee combat as described, you have to be within range and facing the target with every swing you make. It's very enjoyable. But again, that's not using Pathfinder combat mechanics.
Basing the combat in rounds, I see more of a Neverwinter Nights style combat presenting itself in PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mechanics like opportunity make twitch fighting and a lot of common MMO tactics not so good in PO. And rogues friggin rogues, if you're not "looking at" them they can sneak attack, so how do you tell the game if you're looking at them or not?
I kind of relish the days of early OE when a bunch of former WoW etc. hot shots come in and start circle strafing fighters...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The circle strafe won't work in PFO, thank the Gods for that! The bunny hop from FPS won't be effective either.
Running full speed, circling and jumping use up actions. If you want to run in circles and jump around, you will get 1 attack per round. Whereas a player who just modifies his facing will get as many as 3 attacks per round,
I hope that facing works in a cone shape, and that to pivot in a circle is always faster that trying to orbit someone standing in the center.
This is how I hope the combat system works.
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All this, simple stuff which can be fixed with a quick bit of code implementing /stick and /face commands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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well six second combat rounds is not a time based restriction. its a resource based restriction so in a more active combat style you will still be restricted by the fact that you have limited amount of resource to use before it regens.
Base attack and defense would be modifiers to how much damage the attack does and the effectiveness of the attack. So the mage might get more glancing blows, since he has a lower bab, which say reduce damage of the attack by x%.
The rogue problem is very simple, darn near every mmo can detect where in the hit box an attack lands. its a non issue for a team like GW which has a lot of mmo experience.
PfO will not be based on rounds. The combat round in PfO describes the regen cycle of the the resource used to control how many attacks can be used in a six second period of time. Then that resource is replenished every six seconds.
What is this about strafing not allowing attacks? And if you only face you can attack more? I understand that GW is going to go into a targeted system but I would be very surprised if most of the skills locked you down in place and did not allow movement.
I am really liking active combat and skill shots. its another way players can distinguish themselves using skill. The only presented argument that i think makes sense is that GW wants to attract folks with not high hand eye coordination. However the thing is that skill shots arnt like an FPS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The issues I have is that skill-shot based targeting (that is, without locking):
1. Makes it very easy to meatshield with unaffiliated people and force your opponent to take rep damage.
2. Would definitely lead to people rapidly spinning around each other and jumping about in combat, which is really silly when you think about it.
3. Would mean a level 1 rogue could be more nimble than a level 20 rogue, just because their player has better reflexes.
4. As said, it would make fighting rogues even more of a chore unless their proposed mechanic for Sneak Attack is radically changed. If you have to face them to not take bonus damage, there's even more silly spinning, etc.
@Qallz, what would a non-target game with /stick and /face commands accomplish which a game with targeting cannot?
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. this is the same as blue blocking, Its something that would need to be addressed by GMs
2. not realy, in games that use that people dont just jump and spin around and attack without aiming. that leads to getting killed. also look at wow where players do this all the time even with a targeted system.
3) Yes, however the level 20 rogue will have other stats so they will take less damage. The idea is to allow player skill to have more impact on combat.
4. No it wouldnt. Many many many games use directional attacks where if you attack from behind or the side there is a damage increase or that an attack only works if its from behind. these positional abilities reward a player for being able to either strike first and thus decide where the first strike goes or to be able to out position your opponent and be able to use a positional strike. Anyway sneak attack can be gained other ways and im not saying that sneak attack would require a character to be behind another one, just that its a non issue in terms of being able to implement those kinds of things without using targeting.
In an active combat style i would be opposed to /stick and /face commands, honestly im against those even in tab target games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a brief fly-by, I'm not sure about skill-aiming. I normally like that sort of thing, but I think the direction GW wants to go for PFO (drawing on it's roots and on a simple system to code for lots of players with more emphasis on tactical as opposed to twitch) is with "abstraction" as much as possible?
Wouldn't GW prefer to go with:
Fireball 1 = hits target (instant cast)
Fireball 2 = line to target damage across line with most nearest and less furthest (3/6 seconds cast time)
Fireball 3 = AOE around target (6/6 seconds to cast ie full combat round).
I'm pretty sure GW just want to process actions cleanly with cut-off's between successfully targetted and successfully connected (even if end-result returns negated). It all hinges on the server checking results over the time period of 6-seconds iirc from previous mention of what is considered targetted successful and during which stage of the skill-expenditure/animation cycle.
You're still making interesting choices in that round based on position, context and perhaps more factors.
Again if they're moving, they're more vulnerable, if they're facing away they can be more vulnerable. I don't if if they are surrounded that could be another fun factor? And also cover/immediate surroundings for aimed-ranged then that could be fun too to pick best targets.
Well I hope that contributes to the discussion. In essence it's most interesting to overload the player with information to use to pick the best action(s) during, in PFO's case, 6 seconds and you gain more skill at that over time and more range of options, even if it's not actiony ie more factors such as cover, vulnerability, what the target is set-up to be good at defending against etc.
I'm sure I've made a few mistakes in this post but that's the general gist I have of combat presently and hence why any actiony-stuff, I can't find (m)any good egs of where the devs would fit these in???
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yup i dislike forced keyboard movement. I do think that you should be able to do either one as an option.
As to the action combat, honestly I dont think they are going to do it as they have basically said as much. however I do think that there are areas where they could add some of those elements in to make the game more interesting. The main abilities would obviously be spells, so that any spell that does not require a target (fireball, lightening bolt, perhaps the mass cure spells) would be ground target and use the skill of the player to place it for max effect.
I do feel that action combat, if done properly, can keep a player more engaged in combat in ways other than dps rotations.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I just want to move with the mouse. Classic MMO style. I have a hard time with games that force keyboard movement.
What controls constitute 'move with the mouse'? My experience with that style has been "Mouse X moves left and right, mouse Y moves forward and back" or "Mouse X turns left and right..."
When moving forward, that requires an infinite loop of picking up the mouse and pulling it back, which I don't think is reasonable. I'm interested if you know of some other way, or disagree with my opinion on how reasonable that is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What controls constitute 'move with the mouse'? My experience with that style has been "Mouse X moves left and right, mouse Y moves forward and back" or "Mouse X turns left and right..."
When moving forward, that requires an infinite loop of picking up the mouse and pulling it back, which I don't think is reasonable.
I'm a huge fan of Mouse Look / Mouse Move, and solve the problem you referenced by always auto-running unless I'm only moving a short distance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Twitch is for the young. They should be able to do it, with a modifier. Twitch fighting should be an option allowing proper aiming. It should be no more effective than otheier forms of targeting. I suspect that crowd forging in EE finds a 25% modifier. The mangers may need to adjust that to 10% in OE. I would say include, but not provide batter for players than tab targeting, but they get to hit the 1 cm x 1 CM target they want (and mostly miss altogether), THat is fair. Some use game targeting and those that want to experience twitch can try to be better than average.
If your twitch is better, you win. And if not you miss more often. This is adjusted by crowdforging. Yes?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I don't like the active combat gameplay even though it does engage you it also get very tedious in a mmo where grinding will always be a part of the game (at least grinding will be in Pathfinder Online, though it will be interesting and more meaningfull grinding sort of like Warhammer Online if I understood the blog correctly).