Advice for Homebrew Daemon BBEG Please

[Snow_Tiger]

I'm not sure this is necessarily the right thread, Its sorta a little bit of both.

I'm trying to build a necromancy/death magic themed bad guy, so this is what I came up with. I need help with adjusting the general abilities so that the CR fits with things like AC, HD, saves, SR, Special abilities, SLA's, effective Wizard level spells, ability scores, feats, and skills. I am happy to modify things that seem over powered or not powerful enough, just tell me, this is the first time I made something like this from scratch. :)

“<insert name here?>” --- Necrodaemon, Daemon CR16 (I want to keep it at CR 16, or so, so please suggest statistics changes rather than CR changes)
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NE Medium Outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft, deathwatch, detect good, true seeing; perception +?
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Defense:
AC 27, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+4 Dex, +13 natural)
HP 162 [17d10 (77) +85]
Fort +10 base +5 con, Ref +5 base +4 ref, Will +10 base +3 wis
DR 10/good and silver; immune acid, bleed, death effects, disease, poison; Resist cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10; SR 26?
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Offense:
Speed 50 ft.
Melee ?
Space 5; reach 5
Special Attacks undead mastery (DC 28), any more?
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 17th; concentration +27)
Constant—airwalk, deathwatch, detect good, true seeing
At will—enervation, fear (DC 24), greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs. of objects only), invisibility
3/day—locate creature, planeshift (DC 27)
1/day—energy drain (DC 27), finger of death (DC 27),

^^^anything I should add or remove to fit the concept of a daemon-esque necromancer (I already have undead master ability, so not necessarily undead stuff)

Spells Prepared (effective wizard CL 17th; concentration +27)

?- ideas? maybe I should lower effective wizard level a bit? Remember, daemon-esque necromancer (I already have undead master ability, so not necessarily undead stuff)
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Statistics:
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 20, INT 30, WIS 17, CHA 28
BAB +17/+12/+7/+2; CMB +20, CMD 34
Feats ?
Skills (272!?!?); Racial Modifiers +8 Spellcraft?
Languages Abyssal, Draconic, Infernal, Telepathy 100 ft.
Environment any (Abaddon or Astral plane)
Organization solitary, with minions
Treasure: standard/ Level 16 character equivalent?
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Special Abilities:

Undead Mastery (Su) (DC 28) (as per graveknight): as a standard action, a Necrodaemon can attempt to bend any undead creature within 50 feet to its will. The targeted undead must succeed at a Will save or fall under the Necrodaemon’s control. This control is permanent for unintelligent undead; and undead with an Intelligence score is allowed an additional save every day to break free from the Necrodaemon’s control. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same graveknight’s undead mastery for 24 hours. The Necrodaemon can control 5 HD of undead creatures for every HD it has. If it the number exceeds this number, the excess from earlier uses of the ability becomes uncontrolled, as per animate dead.
Other ideas?

[Snow_Tiger]

Bump

[Joex The Pale]

I would recommend a drop of a couple levels in the casting ability. If he's going to have minions, he's not going to be solo in his encounter, so he doesn't need to be TOO tough, or you'll overwhelm your party. Thematically, this guy screams hood and scythe, but perhaps I just like that trope. (I've always wanted to play a scythe wielding fighter in a hooded cloak...)

[Marthkus]

so CR 16?

[Snow_Tiger]

Yes CR 16, so far it seems lower castin to like 15 th or 16th?

[Marthkus]

Yes. DCs are too high for the spells though.

[Snow_Tiger]

Lower cha and int? Or are the DC's just wrong?

[Marthkus]

too high.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Does he have to be an actual daemon? I think you could have as much fun, or more, with either a daemon with class levels, a half-daemon necromancer, or some other sort of evil creature (I'm very partial to the Worm That Walks, myself).

A 14th level half-daemon, for instance, would be CR 16. If you want to keep the "undead boss" theme, you could make him a necromancer 11/gravemaster 3. The gravemaster PrC is kinda so-so -- you give up a level of casting, so he'll only have spells like a 13th level necromancer, which is no great shakes for a CR 16 creature. But it does give him the Undead Manipulator and Negative Energy Conduit powers, both of which are nice if you want him to be standing in the middle of a horde of attacking undead.

Doug M.

[Snow_Tiger]

No it does not have to be, just playing g around with ideas. About a week ago I had another thread called Brainstorming BBEG for upcoming campaign. In that one I tried I out an urdefhan cleric worm that walks, but I found that we was stronger than he was intelligent/wise/charismatic, which bothered me.

I do rely want to stick with the daemon-undead (both necessary) related bad guy.

[Douglas Muir 406]

Well, there are two daemons already in the CR range you're thinking about -- the CR 16 Astradaemon and the CR 17 Phasmadaemon. I think the Astradaemon could make a fine and unusual boss. Even if these don't suit you, they're good starting points for building your unique boss daemon.

What would be this BBEG's position in your campaign? Mastermind behind the scenes? Level boss? And are you thinking he's a combat monster or (more likely) a caster who hangs behind waves of minions?

Doug M.

[Snow_Tiger]

Well more background: this bad guy will theoretically be a caster tryi g to raise an army of undead and daemons to free the whispering tyrant. I felt like the alignment and motives of daemons matched up perfectly.

I imagine this bad guy being the mastermind behind various sabotage and espionage and even manipulating not knowi g countries into periods of chaos so that he and his daemon/undead army can move in swiftly, taking out all three seals (in vigil, taldor, and kraggodan), which strengthen the fourth Great Seal. Once he destroys the three he can eventually destroy the one and release the tyrant.

Not saying I plan on making him successful on all of these, that is up to the PC's.

Again, definaty want the mastermind spellcastery feel

[Douglas Muir 406]

mmkay. Well then, I honestly think your best bet is either a daemonblooded sorceror or a half-fiend rather than a daemon as such. You want more spells to do more different stuff, yes? Powerful evil outsiders are great and all, but most of them are not actually optimized for behind-the-scene strings-pulling. There are exceptions, of course -- the succubus comes to mind -- but daemons don't tend to roll that way. A half-fiend or a mortal, though, has a lot more room to maneuver, both thematically and build-wise.

Using the RAW, a half-fiend 14th level necromancer actually seems slightly underpowered to be CR 16. I think he falls between two stools a bit; the benefits of the half-fiend template, while very real, don't quite compensate for losing those higher level spell levels. There are plenty of ways you could compensate for that, of course. A straight 17th level tiefling necromancer or daemonblooded sorceror, now, can be a truly alarming mastermind and a terrifying final boss as well -- at those levels, the broad spell selection gives tremendous flexibility. Either way, you could go thematically with the whole "prove yourself worthy to your parent/ancestor" thing.

Doug M.

[Snow_Tiger]

The reason I think i was stuck on the whole evil outsider thing I think was because i I visioned him as like a survivor from when the tyrant was imprisoned, and like he didn't die instantly from all the channeling and stuff cus he wasnt undead, and the clerics didn't think to use alignment channel. I was thinking this might have made the bad guy to feel guilt and want to try to raise him.

Do u think I would get away with cheating by saying that the half fiend or whatever is basically immortal or something?

[Douglas Muir 406]

I'm not even sure what canon is on half-fiend lifespans. Pretty sure a daemon wouldn't feel guilt, though.

But if you want to keep that connection, there are several options. (1) Survivor, as you stated, and still alive after centuries. Elf? Dhampir? Lots of Sun Orchid elixir? Half-fiend who takes after the parent in terms of aging? Lots of possibilities. (2) The daemon henchman of the Tyrant died with him, but left a child or a line of descendants. Actually, that has a couple of sub-options: either the henchman was a daemon, or s/he was humanoid but had a child with a daemon. (Or even a demon -- several sorts of half-demons are spelled out in interesting detail in the Demons Revisited splatbook.)

I think the child or descendant raises some interesting possibilities. One, you could have a conspiracy stretching over decades or generations and possibly involving different family members. If you go with the half-fiend, maybe she's had various tiefling children over the years laying the groundwork. Heck, maybe a couple of them are still around as sub-bosses for the PCs to face. And two, the parent daemon, while back on its lower plane, may still be keeping an interest.

Speaking only for myself, I'd slightly prefer the half-fiend for storytelling purposes, but would take the tiefling descendant in terms of flexibility of build. YMMV.

Doug M.

[Snow_Tiger]

Maybe tie fling but call it a half-daemon, because the CR adjustment is pretty killer.

Also, so either like necromancer or sorcerer, or cleric? Also feat allocation and other build option advice, spells that I should use (I probably know them by now, but just brim up some of the cool combinations and stuff, cus I may have forgotten)

Thanks in advance again :)

[Douglas Muir 406]

I view CR as a guideline, not a straightjacket. But okay. So you have a tiefling who's obsessed with proving herself worthy to her daemonic ancestor. Work the daemon connection hard -- she might have Leadership and a daemon cohort, or conjured daemons as allies, or at least Improved Familiar and a cacodaemon bobbing around like an evil little balloon.

Daemonspawn tieflings get +2 Int, +2 Dex and -2 Wis. That suggests necromancer wizard to me. For build tips I suggest Brewer's Guide to the Necromancer (google it) which should let you build a character with just a ridiculous amount of undead friends running around. Daemonspawn tieflings also get Death Knell as a SLA. That suggests she's walking around with a slave or two always close at hand. If she anticipates a fight within the next 10 minutes, she simply cuts a slave's throat -- +2 Str, d8 temporary hit points, and +1 ECL.

As to build advice, a 17th level character has a crazy amount of options available. I'd mix blasting, buffing for her undead chums, and mastermind type stuff to allow her to spin a web of intrigue across the years. An interesting question is whether to go into any PrCs. There are two obvious choices -- Agent of the Grave and Souldrinker. Unfortunately they are both weakish (though flavorful). Worse yet, both require giving up one level of casting, which means your 17th level character won't have access to 9th level spells. That's a big sacrifice and I'm not sure it's worth it in pure power terms. But if you feel the character can afford the hit, go for it.

Doug M.