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Hello everyone, first, a little background information for this. You see it all the time as a player or a GM in society play. "My character is better," or "Well, I can do this." What if there were a way for PFS players to have a time where they could truly show how they would fare against everyone else? Whether in a one-on-one match, or in team fights, a place where every character had a time to shine. Enter the Unsanctioned and Unofficial Pathfinder Society Tournament (for now.)
I've got a basic layout of the tournament rules and inner workings, but I would love to hear feedback from everyone about this, whether you are a player, GM, or Paizo staff.
-------Basic Rules
-No level 1 PCs.
-All matches will be by tier, unless specified.
-Tiers are as follows; 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11, 12+
-All rulings made by judges are final.
-These are PFS characters, and all combat is to be based on PFS rules and rulings. This includes everything from spell selection to magic items and everything in between.
-All spectators must keep any and all tactical help to a minimum. (No help at all is best.)
-Anyone outside the current participants who gives tactical help will receive one warning. After that, they will be asked to spectate elsewhere so as not to disrupt and offset gameplay. Three warnings total, and the player will be asked politely to leave. All matches are a test of player skill and character strengths and tactics. Outside influence swings the balance of a match unfairly in the direction of one player.
-While rounds in combat are 6 seconds, each player will have 15 seconds to decide their actions. Combat is quick and dirty. Get into the mindset of your characters. Learn their abilities and tactics. Know everything you have at your disposal, and know it well. You don't get second chances, and you don't get extra time. Be prepared. Plan your turn even as your opponent plays out theirs. Measure distances quickly. Know your spells. Have AoE templates.
-Not every PFS character will be suited to gladiatorial combat. Choose what characters you bring with that in mind. If you bring a character not designed for combat, be prepared to not do as well as others. Unless you have some sort of trick up your sleeve. *wink*
-All matches are until death, or surrender. This goes for every play style. That means Heal checks to stabilize, Heal checks to see if defenders are still alive, coup de grace's will be taken. (This allows for some third element tactics to come in to play, provided the right PCs are involved, such as bluff checks to feign unconsciousness, and similar situations.) This does not mean a PC can forfeit a match on accident by leaving a living opponent accidentally. A PC will not be allowed to finish a match until all opponents are dead or have surrendered. (NPC judges have miscellaneous spells to watch all current opponents.)
-NO CHEATING. This should not need to be stated. While most PFS players are quite honest, this could still be a factor. Please have all numbers broken down, so you know where your bonuses are from if asked. It shouldn't ever be a debate. (Examples, "I don't know, hero lab said I had it," or "I don't remember where I got it from.") Be thorough. Again, know your character well. Please. It will help everyone have a great time, and help everything go smoothly.
-Buff spells may be cast in and out of combat, but have separate rulings. Spells with a duration of "10 minutes per level" or greater may be cast before combat. Each spell being cast must be stated before initiative is rolled, and spent accordingly. All spells with lesser durations than "10 minutes per level" must be cast in combat. No exceptions.
-All PCs reset all vital statistics after every combat. Nothing rolls over from one combat to another. All spells reset, hit points reset, ability damage, death, etc.
-Players may not look up any Bestiary entry during the course of the match unless they have summoned the creature to be looked up. Any player who does so will be counted as cheating, and forfeit the match. Any knowledge a player may have beforehand about a monster is acceptable, and any knowledge check a character makes will have the resulting learned information given by an unbiased spectator or judge.
- THE GOLDEN RULE –
- Be respectful of the Host Location. They are kind enough to let us have such an event, we should be just as kind and support them in turn.
-------Game Types
Part One - The Singles
-These are the main tournament matches. It will be broken down by tier, with each tier having its own champion. All singles matches require a Judge.
-Each tier will be run Round Robin style, with each PC fighting every other PC in tier. The PC with the most wins, is the champion.
-All ties will have a tiebreaker match to determine the winner. This includes to determine the champion as well as suicidal matches.
----Optional----
-To give different style PCs a chance to win this, possible other styles of competition are available.
-Examples as follows
--Arcane Spellcaster duels
--Melee Fighter duels
--Archer duels
--Tank duels (The Slap Fight Pits)
--Divine Spellcaster duels
Part Two - The Doubles
-2v2 Teams chosen by players who wish to play together against other teams.
-These are also Round Robin style, with a Champion Duo at the end.
-Both PCs do NOT require separate players.
Part Three - The Parties
-4v4 Teams chosen by players who wish to play together against other parties.
-These are played free roam style, not bound by tier, nor any other requirement.
-Each of the 4 PCs must have a separate player.
-Each Party will have its members, races, classes, and APL up for public view at the tournament.
-Any Party may be challenged by ANY other party at any time. Matches will commence once all players on both parties are free. NO ONE is required to accept a challenge, and no Party is allowed to challenge a party more than 2 APL below their own, though any Party is allowed to challenge another party of a higher APL than their own. (Ex, Party A has an APL 3, and Party B has an APL 6. Party A may challenge party B, but Party B may not challenge Party A.)
-ALL Party PCs must be within 2 levels of the APL. This is to keep teams from recruiting high level PCs counterbalanced by low level PCs to create teams of misleading strength. APL rounding rules follow those laid out in the Society Guide to Organized Play.
Part Four - The Frenzy
-This is a Free For All match held for every tier.
-All characters from each tier are to be invited to participate, none are required.
-This has the potential to have a very large number of involved PCs. A judge is required to track Initiative as well as keep players in check.
-All initiative ties will be decided first by initiative bonuses first, then a flat D20 roll-off second. Highest roll wins.
-These matches may take up a considerable chunk of time.
Part Five - The Battle
-This is a Half and Half battle style match held for every tier.
-All characters from each tier are to be invited to participate, none are required.
-This has the potential to have a very large number of involved PCs. A judge is required.
-Initiative will be determined by taking the average initiative bonus for each team, and then each team rolling a single D20 and applying the bonus. Turns will be taken in waves.
-One team will take a round, followed by the other. This is to cut down on the number of rounds required in a battle to complete it. This is intended to be fun, not lengthy and painstaking.
-Each team will break its members down into groups based on initiative bonuses. 0-3, 4-6, 7-9, and 10+. After teams roll initiative, it will go back and forth from team to team based on initiative groups. (Example, Team A gets a 13 initiative and Team B gets a 7. Team A breaks its members down into initiative groups, and finds that only 2 of its members have initiative bonus's greater than 10. Team B does the same and finds they have 4 members with initiative bonus's greater than 10. Though Team A won initiative, Team B has the advantage for the first round. Team A will have its two members go first, since they won team initiative, and both act at once. Then Team B will have its four members go. Then Team A has its members with bonus's of 7-9 go, and so on and so forth.)
-Judges will divide teams as evenly as possible. Each PC registered will have an attached role. Judges will divide PC roles evenly amongst the teams, ignoring all other qualities of any given PC.
------- Fame Bonuses
-All PCs may use their total Fame as a currency of sorts for the duration of the tournament.
-Each character will have a card with their total Fame listed, as well as Fame spent during the course of the Tournament.
-Fame may not be spent during The Battle or The Frenzy play styles.
-Fame may be spent for several purposes, as follows:
--Fame may be used to select the terrain for any given match the PC is participating in. This is for one match only, and any other PC in the current match may outbid another to select a terrain of their preference instead. This is allowed as an open bidding war in duels, and must be a team decision in all other game types. These are to be played strictly on open, flat battlefields. Players may bring terrain with them to use and bid for, or borrow terrain from other players not currently in the match.
--- The following are a number of random terrains to be drawn on blank flip mats or battle mats by nearby judges if available; 5 foot wide maze corridors, 10 foot wide maze corridors, and random urban environments.
--Fame may also be used to purchase a bonus to any single initiative roll. Bonuses must be purchased prior to the roll, and checked off on the tracking card before rolling.
-------- Registration Rules
--All Registering PCs must also provide the following information to the host upon signup.
-PFS player - character number
-Class and any applicable archetypes
-Race
-Levels of all classes
-Character role : Melee DPR, Melee Tank (HP or AC), Ranged DPR, Arcane Spellcaster, Divine Spellcaster
-Any Team or Party the PC is a part of. Each PC is limited to being a member of a single Team and/or Party.
-Any rare or odd feature of your character you believe the host and judges should know. This could be anything from being a Goblin to a man with no legs. All we need to know is how you have it legal for society play, and proof. This will save an immense amount of time with debates.
--Learn the abilities and equipment of all PCs you wish to register. There will not be do-overs, there will not be take backs. If you forget something you could have done, that is on you. Be as prepared as possible. This will help everything flow smoothly, and ensure that YOU have much more fun, as you will keep the ball rolling, and get into more action, more fights, and more play time.
--If you have any piece of equipment or class feature or ability or archetype, outside of the core assumed resources, please have an up to date ruling and/or resource available. You may be asked to show said resource during the course of the day by any judge. The rulings are to help if a rules debate appears. If you have the ruling readily accessible, this can end many arguments before they begin, without needing a judge called to make a ruling.
-Any and all hosts have the ability to limit the number of characters a player may register. Please take the time to learn this information and plan accordingly.
----Judge Rulings
-Judges will be labeled and known to all players.
-There will not be a judge at every table. Most matches will run themselves, and won't need a GM. Judges are players too.
-Roaming judges can be called to settle any and all rules debates, their word is final for the course of the match. If you can find a source to overturn their ruling in between matches, have that resource available in case the debate comes up again. Judges are not perfect. They are there to end conflicts between players, and can make mistakes.
-All judges are volunteer, so please show your gratitude and thank them for their assistance.
-Be kind and respectful to all judges. Even if you don't like how they ruled a debate, please be sportsmanlike and roll with the punches. You'll get 'em next time.
-Judges will be required for multiple game types. There may not always be a judge available. If a debate arises, and one is unavailable, two options remain. If the debate cannot be decided between the two players, then a spectator can hunt down the ruling quickly, or else the players may wait patiently for a judge to become available.
----Prizes and other Monetary rules
---Optional---
-Registration fees
-Prize fund
-Prize donations
--My plan--
- $1 per PC per player. As a host I would limit players to 3 PCs each. All registration fees would go into prizes for Singles matches, such as minis, or dice sets. Any extra proceeds would be donated to the Game Store that hosted the event or any expenses paid for reserving space, in addition to the prizes bought there. No profit will be given to the Host or Judges. Depending on the number of players and PCs who sign up, I could budget out a prize for each tier of Singles matches, and if a large enough gathering of people, possible expand out to Teams rewards as well. Prizes would be random, with a couple larger prizes, and multiple smaller prizes. Each prize would have a number attached, and a dice would be rolled (Is there any other way? I thought not.) to select your prize should you become the champion of your tier.
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One thing I did not like:
The Fame thing. It penalizes those who have done a lot of modules.
Other than that I think the 10 min/level limitation sounds good, but why make it per level. Why not specify a set of minutes a spell will have to last. Say 20 or 30 minutes?
But I would totally try this thing out, and I'll try to see if others feel the same on the Online community.
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You see it all the time as a player or a GM in society play. "My character is better," or "Well, I can do this."
I, regrettably, do see this all the time. My response is usually one of two things:
1) "I'm glad you're so excited about your character. They sound cool."or
2) "Yeah. Thanks for making my character completely useless in this scenario. That +15 initiative, 30-50 dpr and 35 AC makes my full plate fighter completely irrelevant." (followed by a mental note not to play with that player's character again.)
That said, I encourage you in this endeavour. I recognize that not everyone has the same tastes as I do, so for those who might enjoy it, have fun.
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I think that this is not a good idea. This would push towards the favor of min-maxing/munchkining. I have seen casters dual fireball for over 200 damage in a single round, gunslingers doing 100 without criticals, intimidation specialist (an unbalanced mechanism, imo) fear-locking combats, dinosaurs everywhere, etc. This will make it where people will join in a game to whoever wins initiative, wins the game., frustrating much more than pleasing.
This also goes against people who are judging as well. This means that a judge has to be on the ball on ever single character build that is available, which is endless. Moreover, this will cause judges that assume the team split is 'balanced'. A judge sees a 'cleric', assumes a healing specialist, fails to understand that the cleric is a touch debuff build, the party dies, and much anger ensue.
Also, some characters are not going to be much at an advantageous position than some. A barbarian with a large keen impact bastard sword will be at a higher ground than a Paladin with a evil outsider bane holy longsword.
Intentionally, I am assuming you are trying to do something the would be interesting, but with situations like the ones I gave examples to, this will not end well.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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followed by a mental note not to play with that player's character again
Everybody works differently, but for me (and a number of people I know) the sooner the combat is over the lower chance someone will get killed. Less risk = more safety.
whoever wins initiative, wins the game frustrating much more than pleasing.
This means that a judge has to be on the ball
From 12 years of this at GenCon, I can say you rarely ever complete one of these type events in under 12 or 15 rounds in less than 6 hours. Granted the only kind I do are PVP free for all arena style.
The model I use is a tag team DM. One that coordinates the turns and the effects. A second that is the rules appeal judge who will look it up in a book and who handles the score.
It makes GMing these trivial with that model.
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One of the basic assumptions of the pathfinder game, is that your characters are designed to be specialists who function in a team. By working cooperatively together, they can take on a wide variety of challenges the GM puts in front of them.
The character classes are not really designed to fight individually in an arena. Perhaps as a team, but not individually.
I pretty much echo Jeff Manhood's thoughts. Good luck with your endeavour, however an arena PVP Melee isn't my cup of tea.
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Thanks for the feedback so far. I understand that there will be many PFS characters who will not do as well as others in this. That said, I believe some characters will surprise people. Yes, a lot of matches will be either Win the Initiative or Die, but there will never be a way round that. It's how the game mechanics work.
To Cao, the Role system is an attempt to breakdown what characters do to help judges balance things. Maybe it could be expanded a bit to help out more. In addition, if you read the rules about player registration, them giving us additional info helps reduce stress on judges, as well as needing resources and ruling on hand.
Lormyr, yes I had planned to run this thing sometime in January. I've got my home store here in Minneapolis in mind.
James, I had not thought about trying it out online, that could get a lot of players potentially, and would be beyond my skill alone to organize.
Myles, that's kinda why I threw in the team and larger battle styles. So more styles of character get a chance to shine. I know PCs like skill monkey or socialites won't really get to, but it is a tournament after all.
And Jiggy, I've seen it a fair amount. Not too big, but a fair amount.
Most of the players up here realize they need to optimize to survive, so there are few "bad" characters here. But at the same time, those who minmax too hard kinda become the brunt end of a joke and that shies others away from doing the same. Optimization is an essential part of the game, but Min Maxing to break the game actually ruins the fun. It makes your teammates feel less useful, and leaves the GM disappointed if he never gets to put you in danger. I have and always will strongly despise broken or overpowered PCs. In a tournament, I understand that in solo matches they will probably reign, but in team matches, I think they will get wiped out. Because a group of smart players with the right skills can knock out anyone.
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The character whom I have the most fun playing, is a paladin/bard/ranger.
He has made less than 15 attack rolls ever and he is level eight. Would he want to join in the tourney? Absolutely. Would he survive even the first round? Not a chance. Even though he is built for massively buffing allies and granting them all teamwork feats 24/7. Any optimized character would destroy him. This sort of tourney will encourage nothing, but power gaming unless there is some manner by which to compensate. However, I can't really think of any way in which to do that.
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That's what the team and and larger games are for. Imagine your Inspire Courage buffing 20 or more PCs at once. Not every PC will be good at 1v1 combat. Not every PC will be good in large scale combat. Fighters will shine 1v1. Wizards will shine in 4v4. etc etc. The multiple game types allow every PC a chance do have some fun.
However, it is still a combat based tournament. Again, not every character is built for that, and some will be left out. This is a chance for PFS PvP. Plain and simple.
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Lormyr, yes I had planned to run this thing sometime in January. I've got my home store here in Minneapolis in mind.
James, I had not thought about trying it out online, that could get a lot of players potentially, and would be beyond my skill alone to organize.
Good deal then bud, hope it works out for your store. If you decide to do an online thing, you can most likely count me in.
As far as rules, I might offer two pieces of advice:
For sake of fairness, I would remove an fame bonuses. The idea for initiative and terrain choice are cool, but I think leaving those things "as on sheet" for initiative, and terrain 100% randomized would be the most fair experience.
Second, rather than employ a duration based formula for pre-active spells, you might consider just giving all participants x rounds of prep. If you give casters too many buffs, it favors them for victory. Likewise if you give them too few, it can leave them too vulnerable (all relative to the level of play in question of course). Giving everyone a little prep time seems to be a decent middle ground though. Just my preliminary thoughts.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Online
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We have done some small group sessions using the Conflict PvP rules for Pathfinder:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8wpy?Conflict-PvP-Tactics-Teams-Hardcover
It is very well done, and we had a good time.
Some Reviews:
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Lormyr, the number of rounds before combat is an excellent idea. That would probably work far better than allowing casters to buff. As far as terrain goes, allowing players to buy terrain or select it could give some characters a needed or situational edge, and can neuter others. A random map could work better, however the only way to do that effectively is have a decent sized supply of maps available for use.
Jiggy, I do not know how to accommodate for alignment based abilities. Many spells such as chaos hammer should work fine, but smite evil, I haven't the faintest idea. Any suggestions?
Conman, I really really like the idea of a Survivor style game for PCs. That could be my next project to work on. That could allow for a whole different breed of characters to shine. Of all kinds even.
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followed by a mental note not to play with that player's character againEverybody works differently, but for me (and a number of people I know) the sooner the combat is over the lower chance someone will get killed. Less risk = more safety.
Fair enough, but on numerous occasions, I've had characters be so safe in a combat they might as well have never shown up. I don't come out to game nights to sit and watch other people play.
Jeff ManhoodHa! Hey Jeff, if that's not already your nickname, it is now!
Ugh.
I've successfully convinced most of my students to call me Hoodlum, actually.
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Two thoughts:
There are two types of players when it comes to competition. Some love it, and some hate it. I personally enjoy healthy competition, but that comes from being in sports in High School and Tae Kwon Do / Karate and doing the competitive tournament circuit.
Race for the Runecarved Key had a kind of love it/hate it review. Some people loved it, and others hated it. Because it was a competition.
So be aware, that some people are going to absolutely hate this idea simply because it is a competition.
I will look over your rules a bit later and give you some feedback on those specifically.
But generally I always thought that a friendly competition like this would be fun.
I doubt though, that this would be anything other than "for fun" as I don't think the campaign leadership is interested in opening up any kind of PvP, where a PC could kill another PC permanently.
But if you wanted to set something like this up in your area, and were I your V-L, I would do what I could to participate/assist you in setting it up.
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A Random free-for all with like 10 character pods would be interesting (the Judge may need an assistant to help run initiative and stuff).
So lets say 20 people show up, you literally draw chits for which table you sit at to play, and then everyone is thrown into an arena (great flip map for that) and it all starts from there.
you could have rules for pre-buffs or not, or just a gritty no-buff game but for what you can apply by class ability (spells) as you go.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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situational edge
accommodate for alignment based abilities.
Conman, I really really like the idea of a Survivor style game for PCs
Just pick the terrain and use one. If by chance the players get a situational bonus, so be it.
The alignment issue is best done as a True Neutral filter. Where the arena treats all PC's as True Neutral for any effect or ability. So Blasphemy would have no effect on a Lawful Good Paladin in the arena.
Survivor as in different challenges? As in like skills and such? Not my cup of tea. I think most people would lose interest by the end?
everyone is thrown into an arena (great flip map for that) and it all starts from there.
I'd recommend not having line of sight/effect from every PC to every other PC initially. In other words, the maps I've used have a hidden area per PC that they can come out into the open.
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I love the idea - I'm pretty competitive!
We tried to have a "Battle Royale" at a gameday in Atlanta, but there was little interest; I suppose interest may vary by region.
As I recall, it was to be a mix of solo PvP and team-based PvP (to engage support-style PCs). I'd certainly love to see a community standard for PFS-sanctioned PvP created; it might encourage some competitive play, and would provide a nice change from the standard scenario experience (witness the popularity of "We by goblins", for example.)
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Though I am not quite clear precisely how time advances in-game vs. reality, some boons that have timers would lead me to believe they are congruent. In an advanced time setting though, a grand pvp melee for the next Ruby Phoenix Tournament could be super slick.
Realistic to the setting precautions could be taken to ward off PC deaths from other PCs as well. A few examples:
1). Surrendering as an immediate action with the understanding that all surrenders must be accepted.
2). Each participant benefiting from a shield other spell from attending priests. When you reach 1/2 hp (witnessed by a status spell or a supped up deathwatch or the like), you are immediately disqualified.
3). A bit out there, but perhaps even a very high level presiding priest of Abadar employing a miracle spell for each fighter that basically manifests as a contingency effect that erects a resilient sphere around a fighter on the condition of "prior to receiving the next hostile action that would result in death if successfully employed". When the contingency fires off, you're disqualified.
While I can't see the campaign leadership getting firmly behind the idea because of the potential headaches involved with everything from organization and implementation to whiny players, there is nothing stopping anyone from hosting some "off the record" competition for glory or bragging rights.
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True neutral filter is probably the only fair way to do that. The hidden starting areas is a nice idea, I think what I will end up doing is the random map idea, so they may start out hidden, or in public view for all to see.
Not sure how I see that as balanced or fair at all. It's a huge handicap to Clerics and Paladins, (and really a lot of Divine Classes), and being True Neutral is mechanically the best alignment, as you are immune to many things.
What might work is to make everyone on a different team count as Evil (or Good) regardless of their actual moral Alignment, for all sorts of Buffs and Resistances. Also for any sort of attacks or offensive abilities, but those are reduced, say by 1/3 of their normal power level, caster level, or whatever applies.
That would also fix issues like a TN caster summoning a bunch of Demons and Devils who are treated also as TN and completely bypass things Like Magic Circle vs Evil.
Every time I have played in something like this, the Alignment issue has always been the main problem, because no matter how you cut it, it really handicaps some classes.
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Maybe just flat out assigning one team as lawful good, and the other as chaotic evil for the purposes of any alignment based abilities. This would effectively alter all abilities a character has based off of those abilities as well for the duration of the match. Example being, a paladins smite evil and detect evil abilities, if he were assigned to the evil team, they would become smite good and detect good.
Another possible solution would be to have every PC have a random alignment for the entirety of the tournament. The main problem I see with this solution is the potential to harm your own allies, but that should always be a potential danger.
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The point of having a neutral alignment however is to be immune/resistant to alignment based abilities, the trade off being you have less options on deities from TN, with the full span of N (including LN and CN) you can cover all of the rest of the options.
So not only to handicap classes, but concepts too? Wait, what?
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Why not have an aura on the battlefield that treats each person as if they were the most favorable alignment for them and their allies' effects, but the least favorable for all effects from enemies?
E.G.
Paladin on the Red Team is considered Lawful Good by himself and all allies, but the Blue Team Paladin can smite the Red Paladin as if he were Chaotic Evil and vice-versa.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What might work is to make everyone on a different team count as Evil
Alignment issue has always been the main problem, because no matter how you cut it, it really handicaps some classes.
The least impact is to remove the issue (True Neutral), because otherwise you end up giving some players significant advantages. You are also inherently encouraging one class over others (Paladin.)
Why not have an aura on the battlefield that treats each person as if they were the most favorable alignment
Worse ideal so far. I just did one of these about a month ago with the alignment rule (and that group is doing another on the 27th) with a null alignment (all True Neutral) rule.
You had Paladins doing 600+ damage a round, to kill anything in one round. A rule like this says "make a paladin to win". This paladin killed a Gate'd Jabberwock in less than a full attack, also killed a gate'd Solar in one round.
Simply put, if you put Alignment rules (other than TN) into the rules you are telegraphing "play someone that abuses ALignments" to your players.
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Regarding alignment issues I only see two viable options.
Option 1:
Leave all alignments as-is on sheet. In some cases of law vs. chaos, there may be an advantage here and there. The predominant issue of good vs. evil becomes irrelevant outside of the issues of summons, however.
Though this harms paladin offense, they still remain playable with plenty of other useful class abilities.
Option 2:
Everyone counts a True Neutral for all affects.
This has the side effect of making some abilities that are then always useful no matter what, however (holy word and unholy blight for example).
I am personally in favor of using option 1. Sometimes it will work out for you, sometimes not - but it's always fair as far as using a rules set goes because you got to choose it.
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The least impact is to remove the issue (True Neutral), because otherwise you end up giving some players significant advantages. You are also inherently encouraging one class over others (Paladin.)What might work is to make everyone on a different team count as Evil
Alignment issue has always been the main problem, because no matter how you cut it, it really handicaps some classes.
No, you are still giving a significant (and I would say even larger) advantage, it's now just Divine classes vs Non-Divine classes. But forcing this TN, 1.) is boring, 2.) means that a lot of alignment related mechanics and builds no longer work, (once again handicapping those characters that do rely on them for no reason), and also 3.) cuts out a lot of material/concepts/builds.
Making it team vs team alignment on the Good/Evil spectrum is a much better and balanced direction to go in, but if you just do that it does, (very slightly) favor Divine Classes, as things like Protection from Evil will always work where it should be more of like 50%-75% of the time in PFS. I think you are also forgetting that this is supposed to be a place that existing PFS characters of all levels can come and just run a 1 shot grand melee. Your restrictions really make it impossible for a lare portion of possible characters to even participate without complete rewrites, so it would be better to do a minor shift of an overall rule (can't play Evil in PFS) than to force massive rebuilds.
Another Option is to say that all Good Aligned Creatures/Characters count as Good, and all LN, TN, and CN Characters, and all non-Good Creatures all Count as Evil, but only against spells, abilities, and class features that act differently for Alignment. That actually makes a lot of sense as there are only the two possibilities on the moral alignment spectrum in PFS. In this way, an entire team would not be immune to or automatically affected by any Alignment affect, as the team would (probably) be comprised of nearly equal amounts of Good and "Evil" players.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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a lot of alignment related mechanics and builds no longer work
It is cool that you picked out the design goal of the True Neutral filter.
We just differ on whether or not it is needed.
It has been present in the rules for at least 5 years, and nothing ever gets banned until abused. The first year Synthesis Summoners were allowed, they won hands down no chance of failure. I opened then back up GenCon 2013 and again they won. This year the PC had the highest AC, highest Touch AC, highest individual Stat in STR DEX and CON. Highest HP. Highest number of attacks. Highest attack bonus per attack. Most number of one-shot consumables spent. Basically making it hard for others to win.
If you allow this alignment issue, you are creating situations where it greatly favors some classes over others. The design of the True Neutral (as opposed to just simply banning anything that works differently on different alignments is you can still use it to lesser effect.)
If you don't like the True Neutral, then I recommend banning any ability or spell that depends on Alignment. So no Smite Evil, etc.
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I have been involved in various competitive D&D formats over the years and I have always been disappointed by them even when I won. While they were fun sometimes to participate in, I never felt they did a very good job as an accurate measure of the quality of the player or group. Part of this is simply how subjective a lot of the game is. One of the biggest factors in this was DM variability. One DM allowing a particular trick to work while another doesn't can change results greatly.
Another problem is that such competition will invariably support and promote power gaming. If PFS wants to promote power gaming, that's fine, but considering the number of complaints people commonly make about power gamers, I am not sure that is a good idea.
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a lot of alignment related mechanics and builds no longer workIt is cool that you picked out the design goal of the True Neutral filter.
We just differ on whether or not it is needed.
It has been present in the rules for at least 5 years, and nothing ever gets banned until abused. The first year Synthesis Summoners were allowed, they won hands down no chance of failure. I opened then back up GenCon 2013 and again they won. This year the PC had the highest AC, highest Touch AC, highest individual Stat in STR DEX and CON. Highest HP. Highest number of attacks. Highest attack bonus per attack. Most number of one-shot consumables spent. Basically making it hard for others to win.
If you allow this alignment issue, you are creating situations where it greatly favors some classes over others. The design of the True Neutral (as opposed to just simply banning anything that works differently on different alignments is you can still use it to lesser effect.)
If you don't like the True Neutral, then I recommend banning any ability or spell that depends on Alignment. So no Smite Evil, etc.
What are you talking about? What design goal other than to twist the rules to favor (I'm guessing) is your playstyle of choice. Forcing True Nuetral is horribly unbalanced and in no way whatsoever fair. It also is not PFS orientated, and mechanically is well known to be the best alignment. Forcing TN would make every one of my PFS characters illegal, (not that I am actually playing in Sumedocin's event), and is very much a different beast than having a character that is just not very combative or gladiatorial, (which is the actual design philosophy).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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What are you talking about?
PFS characters illegal
Aw, I see. We are not communicating.
Look at my 1st post, it has a PDF. The PDF includes rules to do these sort of tournaments and has a filter rule for alignment.
This filter doesn't make any character illegal. It only makes you register as True Neutral for other PC's affects and abilities. The intended design is to make it such that Smite Evil, Blasphemy, and other effects that work differently based on the alignment of the target are void.
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What are you talking about?
PFS characters illegalAw, I see. We are not communicating.
Look at my 1st post, it has a PDF. The PDF includes rules to do these sort of tournaments and has a filter rule for alignment.
This filter doesn't make any character illegal. It only makes you register as True Neutral for other PC's affects and abilities. The intended design is to make it such that Smite Evil, Blasphemy, and other effects that work differently based on the alignment of the target are void.
Which results in the winner being the best at killing other pathfinders, not the best pathfinder. It gives a very strong bias against Paladins and other alignment based builds that are usually quite effective, but under these guidelines are severally constrained.
Any contest where you pit PFS characters against each other isn't going to tell you who has the best character. It is only going to tell you who has the best character for killing other PFS characters. What benefit is there in promoting that?
If you truly want to see who has the most awesome character than you need to have them pitted against identical multiple challenges with a wide variety opponents/tests. Of course, this is still going to rule out characters who are awesome because of how well they work as part of a team.
Before you design tests you need to understand just exactly what it is you want to test for.
"My character is better at killing other pathfinders than yours is!" Why is that brag-worthy?
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Before you design tests you need to understand just exactly what it is you want to test forYou can't build (or it is a worthless use of brain power) a test for what you are describing.
Aren't most scenarios/modules tests in that sense? All that's left is just formulating a way to incorporate the PVP aspect.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Aren't most scenarios/modules tests in that sense? All that's left is just formulating a way to incorporate the PVP aspect.
Maybe I'm just confused.
We are talking about a PVP style event. Where it is last man standing (or last team.)
In that situation, it is best to ban/limit/void things that are game breaking. It is why at the previous ones I've done, we have banned items/features/abilities.
The year that Antimagic was allowed, 5 of the 12 people that entered were Barbarians with Masterwork Greatsword and high UMD with scrolls of Antimagic.
But remember, I'm coming from a slightly different perspective. I'm coming from "BYOC world". So maybe I should just bow out of any PFS perspective. Because, frankly, none of the PFS characters will be as optimized as the BYOC ones.
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I believe I have thought of a solution for the tournament that should actually solve almost any and all alignment based issues. Ignore any class requirements for the duration of the tournament (you still have to qualify naturally outside the tournament), then each character is assigned a random alignment upon registration. Roll a D10. 1 is Lawful Evil, 2 is Neutral Evil, 3 is Chaotic Evil, and so forth, 10 is reroll or choice (undecided). This could work quite well at balancing abilities, as in theory every 1 in 3 PCs will be evil aligned, so paladins will get to smite on occasion (as they should get a chance to) as well as other class abilities working. Thoughts?