So my players are about to encounter their first dragon..ever!
Details:
They are APL = 6 with decent items, it's a homebrew world with some house ruled classes/races.
- Warforged Soulknife
- Warforged Clockwork Engineer (detailed in one of my threads)
- Human Swashbuckler - per 3.5 not the new one.
- Human Ranger (dragon favored enemy)
The beast is a young (CR10) red and yes despite all common sense will be a solo encounter.
The set up:
The party will encounter the dragon in the open and she will use her flyby attack to continually hinder them with breath attacks, mixed in with the hover ability to generate concealment and vital strike bite attacks inbetween.
I plan to keep her off the ground and mobile for much if not all of the encounter, so unless the party can think of a way to ground her....it will be a very HAIRY fight for them.
All fairly new players with little game mastery.
My questions is does this seem like a fair encounter?
They DO know what they are about to face as far as it being a red dragon.
I am afraid this could be a TPK...any thoughts, feedback, tips would be appreciated.
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Well, I'll give you the advice that I usually give people when they talk in uncertainty, of dragons vs party.
If you're in doubt, you'll probably kill the party. That is, of course, assuming you play the dragon to its strengths, and don't decide that it starts meleeing the fighter.
To be perfectly honest, I've seen that situation you describe before, and I always say the same thing. The party should run in terror. Fighting a dragon in the open is close to a deathsentence. You need to drop to the ground, and pray that it didn't see you. Or you need to run for cower and pray it is not in the mood to chase you.
Unfortunately, while dragons are tempting, and amazing, they are also dangerous to use. A dragon that's played with a modicum of respect for its mental stats and experience, will wreck parties with an APL higher than its challenge rating, and if the DM gets cold feet mid battle, and fudges the rolls, the players will be able to tell, and them defeating a dragon will feel meh, and dissappointing, rather than awesome and memorable.
Dragons sprung on the party as random encounters are even worse, because even a well prepared party can have issues. My party of level 10 PCs were fully prepared to fight a Juvenile Red Dragon: They brought dragonbane arrows, scrolls of resist energy (fire) and gathered intel on it before attacking. And it still nearly TPK'ed them. Despite them emerging victoriously, the Witch and Bard were on less than 10 hp, the Witch's familiar was dead and gone, and they had burned most of their consumables and daily ressources.
TL:DR - If in doubt, assume it will murder your party. Dragons are dangerous if played as statted.
Hope it helps
-Nearyn
The Party is aware they are coming upon a red dragon and will have a chance to try and prepare in town a bit first..that's the good.
The Bad- the dragon is eliminating travel along a trade river path and so while there will be some forest cover on one side, the dragon will be strafing the river.
The Ugly - She (the dragon) is working with the Githyanki for thier impending incursion and her primary task is to eliminate travel/trade along this river route which is primary for the region. So she has little interest in pursuing PCs into a heavily forested area that is ...between us..full of gith raiders who are trying to prevent people sneacking around the river route via a land path.
So she gets to somewhat dictate the terms of engagement.
I DO want this to be a very tough fight for them...but I would prefer not to decimate them...
I will likely allow them to get some fire resist in town. And since she is young...good RP may be able to taunt her into landing to confront them.
Any other tips/thoughts? Again this is thier first dragon I want it to be terrifying...awe inspiring ..and deadly...just don't want to squash a campaign with it.
Well, I'll give you the advice that I usually give people when they talk in uncertainty, of dragons vs party.
If you're in doubt, you'll probably kill the party. That is, of course, assuming you play the dragon to its strengths, and don't decide that it starts meleeing the fighter.
To be perfectly honest, I've seen that situation you describe before, and I always say the same thing. The party should run in terror. Fighting a dragon in the open is close to a deathsentence. You need to drop to the ground, and pray that it didn't see you. Or you need to run for cower and pray it is not in the mood to chase you.
TL:DR - If in doubt, assume it will murder your party. Dragons are dangerous if played as statted.
Hope it helps
-Nearyn
Thanks Nearyn....
Options?
In theory they could level prior to facing her...we use an xp free leveling system and they are about due.
The town depends on the trade route so maybe they have a bola system or tethered harpoon to lend?
The PCS already know the dragon is there...and are pretty determined to face her.
so while I could just have her not be present...i'd much rather give them a fighting chance let them make thier own choices.
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Just keep in mind, this is rocket tag at its finest.
I'm not quite sure what the engineer does, but the party looks mostly like gropos melee types.
Without a way to bring the dragon down, he's going to be swooping a bit, probably playing keep away, but this also drops the effectiveness of his breath weapon if the group isn't bunched.
Now here's where fairness comes in. He's large, he's got Poor Flight Manueverability. Stock standard Red Dragon has a +9 Fly skill.
Now, the PRD gives us:
Flying Maneuver Fly DC
Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Easy
Hover 15
Dodgy
Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement 15
Dodgy.
(45 degree turning is your bread and butter. Remember anything tighter and he's risking wasting movement on less than a 6 and if Tiamat helps him, he rolls a 1, he's crashing. Thats not an inconsequential chance of attempting too tight a turn and losing control and looking like a flying dump-truck in front of the mortals)
Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement 20
Fly up at greater than 45° angle 20
If he fails those checks by 5 or more. He crashes and takes fall damage. Keep this in mind, he has to manuever while he flies. This means that the player can manuever so he has to under or over-correct on his fly-bys. He can't just zip back and forth in a line, dude needs to wheel. He also can get knocked out of the sky if he fails a DC 10 check after taking 10 damage, but thats impossible for a young red barring any wind shear.
Doing a wing-over is going to be a 50-50 prospect for the Dragon, and if he flubs it, his face hits the dirt. He takes fall damage (probably about 2d6 if he's flying high enough that he can keep his breath weapon)
And keep in mind, the breath weapon is a 40 foot cone. It originates from him. If he's airborne, he 'wastes' part of it flaming air. This means he gets a weird shaped cone depending on how he fires it at the guys on the ground, which will make hitting more then one target an even dicier prospect.
With open terrain, the dragon has his flight benefit, but if he wants to stay engaged with the party, they'll be manuevering on the ground around him. If they have horses, or mounts, their mobility options are on par, or superior to his.
Given he loses 20ft worth of cone by being airborne, the party can stay close enough to respond to him if he attempts to land to attack, while simultaneously denying him his ability to flame them all.
I think this might be fair, to be honest.
Thanks Nearyn....
Options?
In theory they could level prior to facing her...we use an xp free leveling system and they are about due.
The town depends on the trade route so maybe they have a bola system or tethered harpoon to lend?
The PCS already know the dragon is there...and are pretty determined to face her.
so while I could just have her not be present...i'd much rather give them a fighting chance let them make thier own choices.
I like your approach to the problem.
Your players can do many things to prepare for this fight. The optimal approach would be to fight the dragon in terrain that does not favor it, or set a trap for it. If they're determined to go to the fields of justice and call out the 3 tonne, firebreathing, steel-scaled, flying deathmachine, then they might be in for a spanking. And that is good. You don't become a good hero without knowing defeat, and knowing that sometimes you have to use your head.
But if they play it smart, they could come up with a great deal of innovative ways to deal with the flying menace.
The biggest problem with a dragon-fight in the open, as you've probably guessed, is the dragon's breathweapon+fly. It will just fly over your party, breathweapon them, and start circlestrafing and breathing fire, until the party is dead or dying.
If your players can mitigate this, they may stand a better chance. And if they wanna hide in a forest, please give them a slap to the neck, and start reading up on forest fires.
Emphasize the magnitude of power afforded to this creature by virtue of its strength, deadlyness and mobility. Entire communities have been abandonned because a dragon decided to take up home in a nearby piece of landscape, by extension making said community its hunting ground. If they're not scared of dragons heading in, they damn well should be, heading out.
If you want specifics on what they could do to fight this dragon, I have to ask you for a few specifics in regard to the ressources available to the players. What have they got for gear? What gear CAN they get before the fight? What are the features of the local landscape. How many people can they enlist to help them, etc etc :)
-Nearyn
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He can't just zip back and forth in a line, dude needs to wheel.
This is not the case
At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check.
So let's say the Dragon flies over the PC's, breath-weapons them, and continues it flight in the same direction until the end of its movement. At the start of its next turn, it could instantly do a completely 180, without rolling a fly-check, and come back the way it came, breathing fire again (provided it rolled a 1 on the d4 to get its breath weapon back).
-Nearyn
@spook & Nearyn
Great advice on both parts!
They absolutely are afraid which is good as I agree with Nearyn they SHOULD be.
Again the dragon is a young red...like 5 years old I believe so I think I would be within rights to play her as impetutous and headstrong but not a fool.
As to supplies...the town has a tinkerer guild which I had considered having help equip the party with experimental tech to assist.
perhaps a specially treated cloth or alchemical solution for some fire resist.
high tension tethered arrows for the ranger to try and anchor the beast and cause her to land.
the engineer can create an enlargement and bulls str effect so played smart that could be helpful in creating reach and tethering her.
However even tethered I plan on playing her smart..hovering 10' up creating a dust cloud if possible...full attacks and making sure they remember her....
The landscape is a well traveled river bordered by forest on one side and basic plains/ rolling hills on the other.
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Obligatory rules observation that nobody asked for: A young Red would be 16 years old, minimum. I realize you mentioned you were playing in a homebrew world, so this observation may be worthless, but now it has been made :P
Okay... lesse...
Your suggestions are quite good. Ofc the players need to realize that tethering the beast is only gonna hold her for a short time, seeing as how she bites for a minimum of 12 dmg and has a strength score of 25. They may not know these numbers per se, but looking at the tethers they should realize that once those things are around the dragon, they've got a limited window of opportunity to act, before (in all likelyhood at least, dunno what exactly you plan to do with said tethers :P ) she'll bust through.
Okay so without knowing the exact nature of your homebrew world, here's me in sorta-ish-dragon-hunter mode:
"Dragon is a young Red, powerful, fast and she breathes deadly fire.
The terrain favors her, but the locals are willing to pitch in.
I could use the river for cover, but even with the water, her breath might sting me, or boil me, whats worse is the moment she flames the river, the steam will hinder my view, while she will have perfect vision of me.
As a minimum I need some way to either take her out of the air, or deal with her while she's in the air. I need ranged weapons, no matter which of these I use.
The local tinkerer's guild is willing to help. If I can have their help, and the help of some local rangers, I could set up a hidden arbalest somewhere, where it could help us against the dragon. Even if the bolts may not pierce her scales, the bolts could be tethered, or, if the tinkerer's are up to it, deliver tanglefoot bags upon hitting, tying down her wings and forcing her to the ground.
If I have the time, I should probably take a nice long time to get to know the land, and maybe dig trenches or foxholes where I can escape, should I have to flee the battle. Any tunnels will have to be quite deep and made well in advance, seeing as how her senses are pretty sharp.
Even if she lands, there is no guarantee our weapons will be able to break through her scales, so we should probably stock up on acid, bombs, or similiar touch-attack weapons, just in case.
Finally, I need to be ready for what happens if the fight is in our favor, but we don't manage to kill her. If she escapes, she could chase us forever. She might damage the town in retribution. Whatever I do, I need to make sure that everyone knows the potential consequences, and that I am willing to live, or die, with whatever happens."
-Nearyn
You have all given me a great deal to consider and I thank you!!
It's these types of responses that make the boards such a great resource!
We play on Saturday and I'll let you know how it goes.
@ Zahir in regards to the tether arrows etc.
If I allow it at all, the guild will make sure the PCs are aware that it is VERY experimental tech and also this guild is already known for jealously one might even say zealously guarding its secrets. So in the one dire circumstance they might gain acces to it but likely never again.
Again thanks all!!
My pleasure mate.
Hope you and your players have boatloads of fun, whether they live or die, win or lose :)
-Nearyn
The river itself is about 45' wide and is the primary "road" for trade to travel across the continent as I go with a "points of light in the darkness" take on civilization so roads are often just too dangerous for regular trade across any unpopulated distance.
So the players go involved by no ships arriving at one end for several days...they were asked to investigate and realized very shortly that it was the work of a dragon.
Now the town at one end says "hey you gotta help us here also the PCs need to travel that route to continue spreading word/warning of the coming invasion".
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Hehe, dragon encounters can be fun... I was running a home-brew primitive (stone age tech) barbarian "Lost World" style campaign and the group encountered their first dragon.
Wandering through a large swamp, at twilight... something large heard slipping into the stagnant water, a deeper shadow barely visible moving around them. The and EXPLOSION of muck and dirty water as the Black Dragon took to the air and attacked them! It was a running battle through the bog as the dragon worked to string them out to more easily attack them one at a time, or position them for his stream of acid breath, alternating between flying and swimming. It was hectic and challenging and fun... and caused the now continuous use of the "Always. Carry. A. Bow. BARBARIAN!" line being used on the player of said barbarian who's only ranged weapon was a hunga munga :P
Shortly after the fight ended I played on the (heavily wounded, virtually out of consumables and spells) group's tension and had the small island they had taken refuge on surrounded by hissing, chittering little reptilian foes intent on misery... was a group of about 10 kobolds (6 party members, plus an AC), but the characters had never encountered kobolds before, so the players were glaring daggers of death at my end of the table(I am quite fond of reskinning things to combat the player knowledge/character knowledge issue that can creep up)! They were of course just standard Kobolds with one level 2 oracle leading them and as such were eliminated post haste... but the players were wounded, weakened, and on edge, so the tension before the first attacks were resolved was worth it!
So much fun that can be had with dragons or related to dragons!
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My 2 copper is this: if she's a potential "good RP" away from hitting the ground, let your players know.
I'm terrible at tactics and since N-dawg and the Spookmeister have that covered, I figured I'd throw a different angle on the thread. Superman, you've said repeatedly that the dragon has a certain "firey" personality. Well, the only way the PCs are going to know this and might prep to use that to their advantage would be to tell them.
- Use an NPC: perhaps the squire of a dragonhunter who survived to tell the tale of his master's defeat. Other NPCs might be observers from the villages cleared by the dragon's depredations; a rival dragon bent on vengeance; kobolds that revere her
- Use correspondence: an intercepted missive from one gith to another might be handy. "That bratty little upstart of yours is taking TOO LONG with clearing the trade route. Her prideful temper is slowing us down. If she doesn't get Felder's Knot cleaned out within the next 3 days she'll find herself out of a job...permanently.
- Divination: if the PCs are smart and willing to pay money to a cleric with communion, speak w/dead or better spells in order to gather intel, perhaps this divination reveals her "Achiles Heel."
Now of course what they choose to do with the info given is up to them, but I would suggest this info be specific and literal. Too vague and they'll dismiss or ignore it. But if the party knows:
1. the dragon is willing to parlay and enjoys taunting her prey
2. she often "plays with her food"
3. her hot temper, once triggered has driven her to ground on occasion
then they might be more inclined to actually attempt that course of action. Can you imagine how cheesed your players would be after half the party dies and their ashes are washed downstream (no rezing at this level) and after the battle is over you turn to them and say "well, if you'd have just TALKED to her, maybe she would've landed..." You'd have a riot on your hands.
Good points Hoove, I've tried to lay some of that groundwork but you might be correct in that for MY players it's too vague...
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Reds generally are pains in the ass from a personality perspective.
This is my grognard talking, but reds tend to be belligerant and take the approach of 'show them how puny they are' flipping to 'take them with me' if they start to lose.
And frankly, I still disagree with that reading of Fly. It seems kind of goofy that a poor flight type creature just stops in space and can suddenly turn entirely around when if they're moving they incur movement cost and fly checks.
It also robs us of the glorious 'SHE'S COMING BACK AROUND FOR ANOTHER PASS!" shouts our players make.
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This is what I imagine in tactics:
1. someone with a fly spell (or 2)
2. building man-sized sling-shots to hurl the PCs into the air
3. epic movement: Run for the trees, Climb taking the penalty to move fast, then Acrobatics to jump on the dragon as she flies by
In my game a couple years ago the party was intimidated into doing the bidding of a young green dragon at 7th level. A paladin was in the party so she couldn't break her word. They return to the lair having to give up ALL the loot they found in the dungeon. The paladin however was wearing a really nice suit of armor and the dragon was a perv. He sneers, "Take it ALL off!" at the paladin.
The party at this point is already hurt and down resources. The chamber is a vast hall w/the roof mostly gone for the dragon to get up and out. The paladin shouts "That's IT!" and charges.
Dragon wins initiative and breathes, then retreats on foot deeper into the hall. 2 of to 4 party members drop leaving me a barbarian and a paladin. The Barbarian goes next and is still close enough to the creature for full attack. First attack crits and confirms, the second attack fumbles and the fumble chart we're using confirms his weapon breaks. Paladin charges, smites, and deals mass damage; dragon is hurting.
Second round the dragon unleashes all its melee then lifts up into the air. The paladin is circling the drain at 2 hp and lays on hands; the barbarian is in the teens and weaponless. He rolls a phenomenal Perception and a modest appraise to spot a fine-looking axe sticking out of the hoard, so he uses all his movement on a running jump and grab; he's now armed with a +2 Axe of the Wyvern's Sting (+2 Vicious axe that deals +2d6 on a hit and deals 1d6 to him as well). The paladin hits again once and deals modest damage.
Third round the dragon uses entangle (roots and vines growing down the walls and through the back part of the hall) and makes for the roof hole. Paladin drops her sword and acts as a springboard for the barbarian. Barbarian epically leaps skyward, suffers a bite attack but survives long enough to Crit with the new axe and MURDERS the green dragon in mid-air. He is subsequently dropped to -3 by the damage from the axe and he falls taking additional damage and is nearly perma-dead as the paladin stabilizes him.
No, I didn't play the encounter optimally and no, none of the party FULLY died, but it was still epic and fun. Even the folks who went down in round 1 enjoyed the encounter. And the HOARD! I didn't have to give them any treasure for an entire level. Anyway, that was the first dragon I had in my game and now my players know how bad they can be even in sub-optimal fights. Currently I'm running them through a megadungeon of kobolds and dragons in a dragon-infested region of my homebrew. This is gonna be GOOODDDD!!!
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Death of the dragon or the party may not be the only outcome of this scenario. Consider the possibility that the party and the villagers are able to drive off the dragon permanently.
Idea: It's egg-laying season. The young red has found herself the perfect lair: hot sands, a hidden hot spring, a cavern with a secret entrance, and plenty of nearby food and villagers to terrorize. However, the young red has been spreading a little TOO MUCH terror over the countryside (you know how females get sometimes) and she's attracted the wrong kind of attention (adventurers).
- There is an egg in the cavern. A high Knowledge Arcana or Knowledge Nature will reveal the dragon's distinctive protective behavior.
- The dragon is a little bit lazy when it comes to protecting the hidden entrance to the cavern, or perhaps it's a second entrance (local elders know where it is, because they played there as children. Diplomacy Checks will win the help of the village elders).
- There is a gallery/balcony in the cavern from where sneak attacks can be launched.
- It may be possible to change the geology of the cavern so that there is no more active hot springs and hot sands: perhaps an earth elemental can be recruited to aid in this?
- The young red has a chromatic rival or a metallic competitor
- The "Unicorn Trap" - there is a narrow passageway that leads to the outside, large enough for say...a small PC carrying a dragon's egg. If the dragon were infuriated enough, she may attempt to pursue said character, and may become stuck in the passage (at least temporarily).
Combine some or all of these factors, and the players may be able to convince the dragon that her choice of nests wasn't a sound one. Perhaps they lure her out into the open and combat ensues. If they take cover inside of the cavern, they discover her nest. It may be possible to take her egg hostage or even float it down the river so she pursues it. If the players are clever and persistent, they could convince the dragon it may be time for her to find a different nest.
Just an idea.
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Even better than all of this: what if the PCs negotiate with her?
Taking Owly's idea, maybe she's only doing what she is because the gith have easy access to her lair. They're paying her (of course) but she also knows they can enter any time and swipe her eggs. She is vicious but somehow protective in her behavior. The PCs (through gather info, knowledge checks and other intel) suss it out that she's trying to start a family and they make her a deal.
They'll relocate her and help her move. She rolls over on the gith and gives the party an advantage. She keeps every cent of her hoard and the eggs she's laid. Oh sure, she might later come out of hiding to murderize the only mortals who know where her lair is, but for now problem solved.
I'm just spitballing of course, but consider EVERY option.
Cool idea, Mark.
Consider using tanglefoot bags to ground the Dragon. Protection from fire and other defenses are a must.
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I just did an encounter like this for my group of three 6th level characters. I had them level after their first encounter with the dragon, and it took two more encounters to kill the dragon. While there were some epic moments, there was also some frustration as the dragon controlled most of the tactics.
Here is the main problem with the "Big Dragon" encounter- it forces the players into a very limited set of choices that will result in success. A CR 10 Red dragon is going to be able to control where the battle happens, how the fight goes down, and if it has been beat up, in one round it can be 400 feet away. A single poor tactical choice by a player, and that dragon is either going to cook the whole party, or power attack someone into a fine mist.
However, you set up a dragon encounter, and if it is some medium thing that gets its ass kicked in two rounds everyone is going to go away feeling disappointed. First off all, it will be a large red dragon, but just use the stats for the weakest large dragon - the green. Next, mess around with the feats a little. For example, instead of cleave and great cleave, I gave the dragon hover and flyby attack. Since I also wanted to tone down the dragons ability to execute the PCs, I also took away power attack, and gave the dragon skill focus fly. Instead of the dragon being a melee death machine, it is now a strafing attacker. While you are fiddling with feats, now is a good time to fill in any weakness such as bad saves or AC. Speaking if which, you should also select spells that make the dragon more appropriate for the group you are fighting. Mage armor and shield are powerful choices and many other defensive spells can really help the dragon such as protection from good. Avoid attack spells, as most of those are really weak compared to what the dragons is already capable of.
Next select some good magic items that will help the dragon stay in the fight. Dragons have a ton of treasure, and a few potions, scrolls and wands can prevent the dragon from going down like a chump.
Finally tactics... If you want the encounter to be memorable, it has to be more then just a hard fight. Give the dragon some allies that will prevent the PCs from just walking up and cornering the poor thing in a small cave. What I did was basically allow the players to enter the large area controlled by the dragon, with a red, it shouldn't be too hard- just look for the area where everything is burned to the ground! Chances are, the dragon is going to spot the players and the first interaction will be the dragon attacking the PCs until it gets knocked down to about half HP, then splitting as quickly as it appeared. This is a good chance to test the party and see if you have anything close to a proper match up. Just keep in mind that fickle dice can give false impressions.
Once the players realize that the dragon can hit and run, they are going to need to attack the dragon where it has something to protect- probably the big loot pile in the dragons lair... If you need to increase the power of the party have them level up, give them some loot, or even some NPC help. If you need to make the dragon more powerful, the best thing is to give it some allies. A cleric or druid, an ogre or two and a few archers will make for a much more interesting battle.
Just remember that this type of encounter can go from super challenging to super frustrating for the players. Try to time the encounter so that the dragon dies before the players get tired of it. Also work out some ideas for what the dragon can do if it gets blinded, poisoned, crited or otherwise no longer a serious opponent.
My last bit of advice is to play the dragon as if it were a real living intelligent and wise creature. There are many foolish creatures that will fight to the death, but dragons should be memorable not just for how powerful they are, but for how cunning and clever as well.
a rope bridge strung up with lots of tanglefoot bags, hidden in the dirt of the road. when the dragon flies buy, have a "tug-of-war" from people of the town in trees and the trees accross the river. they bring the rope bridge up to her flight level and gets tangled. some of the bags wont burst, but lots will... she get entangled and the townsfolk let go and the adventures have themselves a ground fight. and there is good pr with the townsfolk, 'cuz they feel good that they were able to help the adventures kill the menace...
I'm terrible at tactics and since N-dawg and the Spookmeister have that covered...
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*cracks up*
*makes alias*
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I'm terrible at tactics and since N-dawg and the Spookmeister have that covered........
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.....
*cracks up*
*makes alias*
To my shame, I missed that. I had target fixation on commenting on the red dragon personality. T_T
I will make a note too, regarding the dragon and dealing with him, if the party had a paladin this would be an entirely different situation. The paladin's smite renders dragons (and evil outsiders) into a considerably different universe.
I think I will bring her down to a CR8 and I have already adjusted stats to make her a hit-and-run attacker instead of a toe-to-toe destroyer.
I really do appreciate all the feedback.
Just as an FYI, for the PCs at this point in the story just chasing her off would be as much a win as killing her outright as she is crippling trade along a specific route at the whim of the Gith and thier pact with red dragons.
Just to throw in another thought, rather than face it in the open perhaps they could figure out where the creature is sleeping these days and attack it there or in ambush near there. While normally attacking a dragon in its lair is a dangerous undertaking, if it's only recently come to the area it may well not have had time/interest to build defenses or potentially even have found an "ideal" lair.
My dragon's backstory just in case anyone was interested.
• Billonox is a young red dragon who has already made a name for herself as being exceptionally destructive and malicious. In her brief life since leaving the nest, she has killed two of her siblings, eliminated a young brass dragon, enslaved two kobold tribes, and eliminated an elven village entirely!
• Recently she has answered the call of the ancient pact between red dragons and the githyanki, traveling down from the far north and so has been tasked with preventing all travel or communication along the trade way between Haven and Waylon.
• She greatly enjoys causing devastation with her fiery breath and has trained to move swiftly while strafing the ground with burning destruction.
• Forced to leave her lair and hoard behind has left the mighty red in a particularly foul mood, thus she taken great pleasure in the screams of those she has roasted along the trade way. Even the wildlife has not been spared her wrath as she has boiled the fish in the water and charred both bears and squirrels alike.
• Billonox has no sense of honor or fair play and truly she is devastation upon the land…
My dragon's backstory just in case anyone was interested.
• Billonox is a young red dragon who has already made a name for herself as being exceptionally destructive and malicious. In her brief life since leaving the nest, she has killed two of her siblings, eliminated a young brass dragon, enslaved two kobold tribes, and eliminated an elven village entirely!
• Recently she has answered the call of the ancient pact between red dragons and the githyanki, traveling down from the far north and so has been tasked with preventing all travel or communication along the trade way between Haven and Waylon.
• She greatly enjoys causing devastation with her fiery breath and has trained to move swiftly while strafing the ground with burning destruction.
• Forced to leave her lair and hoard behind has left the mighty red in a particularly foul mood, thus she taken great pleasure in the screams of those she has roasted along the trade way. Even the wildlife has not been spared her wrath as she has boiled the fish in the water and charred both bears and squirrels alike.
• Billonox has no sense of honor or fair play and truly she is devastation upon the land…
There is a copper dragon by the name of "Wataxshyl", and he lives in Andoran, around the town of Olfden. I've used him as a go-between in my own campaign between dragons/humans/dwarves. He's very young himself, and he's known to take human form. He could make a powerful ally for your party.
• Forced to leave her lair and hoard behind has left the mighty red in a particularly foul mood, thus she taken great pleasure in the screams of those she has roasted along the trade way. Even the wildlife has not been spared her wrath as she has boiled the fish in the water and charred both bears and squirrels alike.
When I read this in the mindset of a player I immediately thought: "THIS is exactly the kind of leverage I need to subdue Billonox!" Here's how:
I find out she had to leave her hoard behind, also her lair. She's out here in the cold, alone, and forced to submit to others. I offer to free her by helping her fake her own death. I could try to sweeten the deal by leaving some loot for her trouble. Then we stage a fight and she returns quietly to her lair, her task executed.
Or if you kill her would it be bad to go collect her loot...
I'm not sure why the dragon should know that she has to fight this particular fight. I'd expect that she'd just be flying up and down the river, see the PCs en route and assume that they're just more peasants to toast. So she might just strafe them once and carry on. Depending on their response, she might or might not come round for another go, or go and kill something less well armoured.
In other words, the PCs need to give her an incentive other than mere pride to get involved in what is patently a deliberate attack on her. She is no genius, but she's not stupid. She can Detect Magic and has +15 perception so if she gets within 30' of the party she can tell roughly how dangerous they might be.
Add a few gith in the forest and the trap becomes even harder to conceal.
So ballistas and armies of rope-wielding peasants are all very well, but she's not going to be take by surprise without some other misdirection.
Well for anyone interested, they killed my dragon!
I allowed them plenty of time to prepare, they came up with good strategies, they played smart...they took a wicked beating, but in the end all the posts that warn against solo monsters versus a group of PCs are right.
Even with 6 attacks a round with full attacking they still chipped her down with a continual volley of arrows and eventually melee full attacks.
I am certain that some might say I didn't play her to her full capabilities or that some of the player tactics shouldn't have worked, but in the end..
The battle was epic, they felt like they all nearly died, but pulled it out through smart play and good dice...and I got cheers when the battle was over so I think I'll chalk that one up as a DM and a Player win!!
Now I have to have my githyanki react to the removal of a major piece of thier invasion plan.
Thanks again for all the feedback leading up to this fight.
The battle was epic, they felt like they all nearly died, but pulled it out through smart play and good dice...and I got cheers when the battle was over so I think I'll chalk that one up as a DM and a Player win!!
GM wins again!
Just out of curiosity, did you use the hover feat to create a cloud of dust? Were there any things your players did (spells, special attacks, etc.) that made a big difference?
Congratulations on a successful first dragon encounter!
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The battle was epic, they felt like they all nearly died, but pulled it out through smart play and good dice...and I got cheers when the battle was over so I think I'll chalk that one up as a DM and a Player win!!
And that is the absolute most important part of what this game is supposed to be about! Good fun and the sense of actual accomplishment in doing something "Epic". Kudos!
The fight opened with the PCs staging an elaborate set up using a false trade skiff traveling down river, they waited among the treeline with arrows outfited with experimental high tension wire. Burst DC of 25.
As the dragon came in to strafe the skiff with fire she sensed them at 60' but they opened fire with the arrows.
She was hit with multiples and they were anchored to trees, so instead of trying to fly away first she hovered...kicking up dust effect and dropped lower to unleash breath weapon into the tree line.
The clever PCs however had a couple with readied action to fire much shorter tethers when she dropped lower....they hit despite concealment.
Her breath weapon hit hard, but they then proceeded to pepper her with tanglefoot bags banking on her failing at least one save.
She did (no DM cheating..the dice just didn't support her).
Once she was grounded they surrounded her taking some serious hits on improved vital strike bites for AoOs, and she unloaded her full attack on the party.
However they are decently built and have decent to hits so they retaliated with multiple full round attacks.
Thanks to the tethers and the tanglefoot bag..she was in no shape to spend a round or more getting free. So she full attacked and followed up with a breath weapon again...but numbers were against her and she fell a round later.
3 out of 4 PCs were down to single digits in hp...the fourth was a last minute addition of a ranger with favored enemy dragon...I think this contributed ALOT to thier success.
But agian they had a blast and brought low a very young red....however they all realized that dragons are not to be toyed with as she was a round away from a TPK and flying off.
The battle was epic, they felt like they all nearly died, but pulled it out through smart play and good dice...and I got cheers when the battle was over so I think I'll chalk that one up as a DM and a Player win!!
GM wins again!
Just out of curiosity, did you use the hover feat to create a cloud of dust? Were there any things your players did (spells, special attacks, etc.) that made a big difference?
Congratulations on a successful first dragon encounter!
Use of the tanglefoot bags was risky...but her touch ac was abyssmal and her reflex wasn't great. So they took a chance in wasting an entire round of tossing bags but they all hit her weak 11 touch ac...and an unlucky roll dropped her to the ground.
So again they played smart. I may have played her just a bit over arrogant in that she flew right at them to "teach" them a lesson with her breath weapon...but I think it fit the temperment of a young red.
Also they worked with a local druid to try and contain the forrest fire.
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WOW! That sounds like an AWESOME fight dude! 2 breath weapons? That alone is 2 40' long cones averaging 33 HP each. For D8 or less HD PCs, failing both those saves alone is a dying/death sentence!
It sounds like they played very smart indeed and I don't know that you did anything wrong, especially based on your players' obvious enjoyment. The only other thing I can think that might have modified the fight might have been Billonox using her magic to some avail though I don't know what good that might have done.
She's size Large; I wonder if she could've grabbed and uprooted one of the trees she was anchored to. That might've also changed the pace of the fight. But who cares? Your players had an awesome time and you got the praise you richly deserve. Congrats CK7; may all your costume changes be both epic and unseen!