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You don't use returning (stupid enchant by the way) you use a BlinkBack Belt.
All your attacks with 1 weapon and works perfectly with ranged spellstrike. The only thing you need to do is take QuickDraw and burn 5 grand on a belt slot item.
dotting
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i understood the title of this post, but it also gave me a hilarious mental image of an oni-spawn picking up and throwing some skinny elven myrmidarch...
the problem the myrmidarch faces is that you cannot combine ranged spellstrike with spell combat... ever... spell combat can only be used with a light or one handed melee weapon, and ranged spellstrike can only be used with ranged weapons- in pathfinder there is no overlap between these categories! thrown weapons are either melee weapons that can be thrown too (like the dagger or shortspear) or a ranged weapon (like the javelin)- any weapon that can be used effectively in melee counts as a melee weapon (by RAW). that makes ranged combat tough cause you miss out on spell combat (and it makes the 11th level bonus to ranged spellstrike nonsensical since you can't use ranged spellstrike in the same round as you make a full attack).
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Ahh, ok. I see what the problem is then.
And while Blinkback belt is indeed awesome, and I didn't know it existed, I would rather have a +6 Belt.
You can easily have both, simply combine both effects into one, it'll increase the cost a bit.
As for the weapon of choice for the Myrmidach you use the NET as your primary opening weapon and add a Throwing shield with shield spike at 11th level.
You'll start a fight using spellstrike with the net to drop a debilitating spell + entangle on your target then follow that up the next round with spell combat with the shield + Blinkback belt to unleash a full attack of trip combat maneuvers at range and end the turn using the shield as a defensive item.
This combo hits the big bad with entangle + prone + spell damage while hitting several of his mooks with with spell damage + prone every round. Good for the magus, good for the party and cheapish to do.
you need Net Adept to use a net with spellstrike; you need quickdraw to use the shield (or any other weapon) with a blinkback belt (and will not be able to use spellstrike when you throw it, and can never use it with ranged spellstrike since its a throwable melee weapon). if you're willing to spend the feats (and sacrifice spellstrike most of the time) that's a pretty solid build (and one i probably wouldn't have thought of).
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you need Net Adept to use a net with spellstrike; you need quickdraw to use the shield (or any other weapon) with a blinkback belt (and will not be able to use spellstrike when you throw it, and can never use it with ranged spellstrike since its a throwable melee weapon). if you're willing to spend the feats (and sacrifice spellstrike most of the time) that's a pretty solid build (and one i probably wouldn't have thought of).
Not really correct here, spellstrike has no limits on which weapon it can be used with. It specifies ANY weapon, period. Net adept just reduces the penalties but since it's a touch attack the penalties are nothing especially if the magus burns a swift action to use arcane accuracy.
Quickdraw is a requirement for any throwing build so is not an issue and as we've already stated spellstrike doesn't care what weapon you use. Spell combat though DOES require you to wield a light or one handed weapon but DOES NOT require you to use it as the weapon during spell combat. I recommend a spiked gauntlet myself, it lets you use spellcombat to cast your spells at the beginning of your turn then you quickdraw your shield from your belt and throw it with ranged spellstrike to do your combat maneuver (trip), it returns to your belt instantly, you re-draw it (free action) and throw it again. Repeat until you are out of attacks.
Legal, efficient, powerful and fun to play.
you need Net Adept to use a net with spellstrike; you need quickdraw to use the shield (or any other weapon) with a blinkback belt (and will not be able to use spellstrike when you throw it, and can never use it with ranged spellstrike since its a throwable melee weapon). if you're willing to spend the feats (and sacrifice spellstrike most of the time) that's a pretty solid build (and one i probably wouldn't have thought of).Not really correct here, spellstrike has no limits on which weapon it can be used with. It specifies ANY weapon, period. Net adept just reduces the penalties but since it's a touch attack the penalties are nothing especially if the magus burns a swift action to use arcane accuracy.
Quickdraw is a requirement for any throwing build so is not an issue and as we've already stated spellstrike doesn't care what weapon you use. Spell combat though DOES require you to wield a light or one handed weapon but DOES NOT require you to use it as the weapon during spell combat. I recommend a spiked gauntlet myself, it lets you use spellcombat to cast your spells at the beginning of your turn then you quickdraw your shield from your belt and throw it with ranged spellstrike to do your combat maneuver (trip), it returns to your belt instantly, you re-draw it (free action) and throw it again. Repeat until you are out of attacks.
Legal, efficient, powerful and fun to play.
Well I'm convinced, I'm gonna use this as a back up character. The visuals for this character in combat are amazing.
¸I think I might try a build later. Sounds interesting.
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Not really correct here, spellstrike has no limits on which weapon it can be used with. It specifies ANY weapon, period. Net adept just reduces the penalties but since it's a touch attack the penalties are nothing especially if the magus burns a swift action to use arcane accuracy.actually, that is incorrect...
whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. (emphasis added)
spellstrike can only be used with a melee attack but a net makes ranged attacks... unless you take Net Adept which allows you to treat it as a one-handed melee weapon.
Spell combat though DOES require you to wield a light or one handed weapon but DOES NOT require you to use it as the weapon during spell combat. I recommend a spiked gauntlet myself, it lets you use spellcombat to cast your spells at the beginning of your turn then you quickdraw your shield from your belt and throw it with ranged spellstrikei thought the first half of this claim (about drawing the shield after casting) was dubious, but after reading all the magus FAQ entries i think you're right about that part. the way you're using ranged spellstrike is debatable though...
At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack.
RAW a throwing shield is a melee weapon (that can be thrown), specifically not a ranged weapon... if your GM takes "ranged weapon attack" to mean 'any weapon attack at range' than use away, but if your GM takes it as 'any attack with a ranged weapon' (an equally valid reading of what is actually written) then that part of the combo will not work.
all that said, i do still think its an interesting build that even with these (potential) limitations could be fun and effective.
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Not really correct here, spellstrike has no limits on which weapon it can be used with. It specifies ANY weapon, period. Net adept just reduces the penalties but since it's a touch attack the penalties are nothing especially if the magus burns a swift action to use arcane accuracy.actually, that is incorrect...whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. (emphasis added)spellstrike can only be used with a melee attack but a net makes ranged attacks... unless you take Net Adept which allows you to treat it as a one-handed melee weapon.
Spell combat though DOES require you to wield a light or one handed weapon but DOES NOT require you to use it as the weapon during spell combat. I recommend a spiked gauntlet myself, it lets you use spellcombat to cast your spells at the beginning of your turn then you quickdraw your shield from your belt and throw it with ranged spellstrikei thought the first half of this claim (about drawing the shield after casting) was dubious, but after reading all the magus FAQ entries i think you're right about that part. the way you're using ranged spellstrike is debatable though...At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack.RAW a throwing shield is a melee weapon (that can be thrown), specifically not a ranged weapon... if your GM takes "ranged weapon attack" to mean 'any weapon attack at range' than use away, but if your GM takes it as 'any attack with a ranged weapon' (an equally valid reading of what is actually written) then that part of the combo will not work.
all that said, i do still think its an interesting build that even with these (potential) limitations could be fun and...
For a normal Magus it states a melee weapon but we are discussing the Myrmidarch archetype here who has different writing on his spellstrike ability:
Ranged Spellstrike (Su)
At 4th level, a myrmidarch can use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack. At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost.
This ability replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.
Note that it says ranged weapon attack not just ranged weapon, so any weapon that you can attack with at range is legal for this ability. If you really wanted to be interesting you can take the throw anything feat and EVERY item in the game becomes a legal choice for this ability.
As for the throwing shield it is explicitly considered as an exotic ranged weapon because it is under that entry on the weapons chart (Ultimate Combat, pg 251 Last entry on the page).
This is part of the new Captain Andoran build or the PF Gambit design.
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Note that it says ranged weapon attack not just ranged weapon, so any weapon that you can attack with at range is legal for this ability.
Pretty sure ranged weapon attack means an attack with a ranged weapon, not anything you throw. Otherwise it would read "deliver it through a ranged attack". If it said that then it would apply to anything requiring a ranged attack roll.
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Note that it says ranged weapon attack not just ranged weapon, so any weapon that you can attack with at range is legal for this ability.Pretty sure ranged weapon attack means an attack with a ranged weapon, not anything you throw. Otherwise it would read "deliver it through a ranged attack". If it said that then it would apply to anything requiring a ranged attack roll.
Possibly but I see it going the other way. Ranged spellstrike is a modification of the regulart spellstrike ability which explicitly states it works with any weapon as part of a melee attack. Ranged spellstrike was defined to work with any ranged attack as long as it was weapon based. otherwise it would remove the use of Daggers, Clubs, shortspears, Throwing Axes, starknives, harpoons and other weapons that can be used at range but aren't flagged as ranged weapons.
Actually it would remove 95% of all weapons in the game from being used with spellstrike for this archetype (remember this class can ONLY use spellstrike at range).That seems prohibitively restrictive for such a limited use archetype and would make it even less likely to be seen in game.
You don't use returning (stupid enchant by the way) you use a BlinkBack Belt.
All your attacks with 1 weapon and works perfectly with ranged spellstrike. The only thing you need to do is take QuickDraw and burn 5 grand on a belt slot item.
Why waste money? Use thrown ammo. Darts, Blowgun + Blowgun Darts, and Shuriken. Not sure about reload time on the blowgun. Ammo is cheap, and enchanting or special material ammo is also cheap. There is also the Rope Dart.
Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
and then
The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
I think this means that any weapon that is thrown counts as as a ranged weapon. A stricter reading just requires an entry in the range column.
/cevah
Edit: moved Rope Dart apart from ammo.
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You don't use returning (stupid enchant by the way) you use a BlinkBack Belt.
All your attacks with 1 weapon and works perfectly with ranged spellstrike. The only thing you need to do is take QuickDraw and burn 5 grand on a belt slot item.
Why waste money? Use thrown ammo. Darts, Blowgun + Blowgun Darts, and Shuriken. Not sure about reload time on the blowgun. Ammo is cheap, and enchanting or special material ammo is also cheap. There is also the Rope Dart.
Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.and then
The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range...
The reason you want to use a shield or other weapon instead of ammunition like darts or shuriken is simple, arcane pool/enchants and breakage.
It's not a good idea to ever spend cash/pool points on improving ammo since they all break as soon as they hit, no matter what they are made
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
And at higher levels when everything has DR/Immunities not having a magic weapon to attack with means you are effectively useless half the time.
As for the throwing action you simply take the feat Two Handed Thrower letting you rattle off as many attacks per round as you normally can.
or an arrow. drawing it's a free action, makes for decent improv weapon, and dirt-cheap to enchant
There is also the Rope Dart.
The reason you want to use a shield or other weapon instead of ammunition like darts or shuriken is simple, arcane pool/enchants and breakage.
It's not a good idea to ever spend cash/pool points on improving ammo since they all break as soon as they hit, no matter what they are made
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.And at higher levels when everything has DR/Immunities not having a magic weapon to attack with means you are effectively useless half the time.
As for the throwing action you simply take the feat Two Handed Thrower letting you rattle off as many attacks per round as you normally can.
Get Durable Arrows. They don't break, even when they hit.
The Rope Dart is not Ammo, so it can serve your needs fine.
The feat when used will not allow an extra attack with TWF.
/cevah
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There is also the Rope Dart.
The reason you want to use a shield or other weapon instead of ammunition like darts or shuriken is simple, arcane pool/enchants and breakage.
It's not a good idea to ever spend cash/pool points on improving ammo since they all break as soon as they hit, no matter what they are made
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.And at higher levels when everything has DR/Immunities not having a magic weapon to attack with means you are effectively useless half the time.
As for the throwing action you simply take the feat Two Handed Thrower letting you rattle off as many attacks per round as you normally can.
Get Durable Arrows. They don't break, even when they hit.
The Rope Dart is not Ammo, so it can serve your needs fine.
The feat when used will not allow an extra attack with TWF.
/cevah
A. Elves of Golarion is out of print making it hard to find/use.
B. Those will restrict you to either using a bow (which doesn't work with spellcombat) or using them as improvised weapons and eating that -4 penalty or burning ANOTHER feat.C. as an improvised weapon they only have a range increment of 10 feet defeating the purpose of a ranged build.
D. The rope Dart like the meteor hammer is a 2-handed weapon (probably) making it also unusable during spellcombat.
Finally, what does TWF have to do with any of this ?
Magi can't use twf while using spellcombat nor can they use their arcane pool to empower a second weapon NOR can they split their spell damage between multiple weapons.
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You don't use returning (stupid enchant by the way) you use a BlinkBack Belt.
All your attacks with 1 weapon and works perfectly with ranged spellstrike. The only thing you need to do is take QuickDraw and burn 5 grand on a belt slot item.
YOU JUST SAVED A CONCEPT OF MINE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. I'd never heard of that belt. It is... wonderful.
A. Elves of Golarion is out of print making it hard to find/use.The reason you want to use a shield or other weapon instead of ammunition like darts or shuriken is simple, arcane pool/enchants and breakage.
It's not a good idea to ever spend cash/pool points on improving ammo since they all break as soon as they hit, no matter what they are made
**Ammo rules**And at higher levels when everything has DR/Immunities not having a magic weapon to attack with means you are effectively useless half the time.
As for the throwing action you simply take the feat Two Handed Thrower letting you rattle off as many attacks per round as you normally can.
Get Durable Arrows. They don't break, even when they hit.
The Rope Dart is not Ammo, so it can serve your needs fine.
The feat when used will not allow an extra attack with TWF.
/cevah
If this is for PFS, I think the printout of a PDF with your email is OK. Not sure, as I don't PFS. If not for PFS, why is this a problem? It is in the SRD.
B. Those will restrict you to either using a bow (which doesn't work with spellcombat) or using them as improvised weapons and eating that -4 penalty or burning ANOTHER feat.
C. as an improvised weapon they only have a range increment of 10 feet defeating the purpose of a ranged build.
I don't know the Magus rules, so I defer to you.
D. The rope Dart like the meteor hammer is a 2-handed weapon (probably) making it also unusable during spellcombat.
The Rope Dart is listed as an Exotic Eastern Ranged weapon. It does not state that it requires two hands. It is similar to the Meteor Hammer, which is a two handed weapon, but since a two-handed sword is similar to a one handed sword, this does not make the other weapon also two handed.
Finally, what does TWF have to do with any of this ?
You brought up a feat that used two hands. Using that feat precludes using TWF at the same time.
Magi can't use twf while using spellcombat nor can they use their arcane pool to empower a second weapon NOR can they split their spell damage between multiple weapons.
Having a second weapon for extra attacks can be a good thing. If spellcombat precludes TWF, then so be it.
/cevah
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A. Elves of Golarion is out of print making it hard to find/use.The reason you want to use a shield or other weapon instead of ammunition like darts or shuriken is simple, arcane pool/enchants and breakage.
It's not a good idea to ever spend cash/pool points on improving ammo since they all break as soon as they hit, no matter what they are made
**Ammo rules**And at higher levels when everything has DR/Immunities not having a magic weapon to attack with means you are effectively useless half the time.
As for the throwing action you simply take the feat Two Handed Thrower letting you rattle off as many attacks per round as you normally can.
Get Durable Arrows. They don't break, even when they hit.
The Rope Dart is not Ammo, so it can serve your needs fine.
The feat when used will not allow an extra attack with TWF.
/cevah
If this is for PFS, I think the printout of a PDF with your email is OK. Not sure, as I don't PFS. If not for PFS, why is this a problem? It is in the SRD.
B. Those will restrict you to either using a bow (which doesn't work with spellcombat) or using them as improvised weapons and eating that -4 penalty or burning ANOTHER feat.
C. as an improvised weapon they only have a range increment of 10 feet defeating the purpose of a ranged build.I don't know the Magus rules, so I defer to you.
D. The rope Dart like the meteor hammer is a 2-handed weapon (probably) making it also unusable during spellcombat.The Rope Dart is listed as an Exotic Eastern Ranged weapon. It does not state that it requires two hands. It is similar to the Meteor Hammer, which is a two handed weapon, but since a two-handed...
Since this thread is entirely about a Magus character using throwing weapons then anything that is not legal/usable for a magus should be omitted to avoid clutter and confusion.
The rope dart since it does not state whether it is 1 handed or 2 handed but does reference it most likely will be treated as such by most GM's.As for the comment regarding 2 handed/1 handed swords is entirely obtuse. Each of those items specifically states what they are and how they are wielded where-as the item in question doesn't. Your argument makes no sense and has no bearing on the discussion at hand.
We are here to discuss a throwing Magus, anything else should be left in it's own thread.
@theMorphling, Glad you find this useful, however I will still state that these are minor patches on a horribly broken archetype and I fully expect it to be a painful, unfulfilling character. If you can find a way to by-pass the other hurdles to playing this we would be most interested in hearing how it goes.
theres a trait that makes it so you only take the improv penalty ONCE, the first time you swing it (in every combat, but whatever, thats still pretty great, yo). after that there isnt one.
theres also a trait for +2 to hit with improv weapons, iirc.
Lets look at the RAW:
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Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):
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Blades, Heavy: dueling sword, bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, flambard, greatsword, great terbutje , katana, khopesh, klar, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword.
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The reason you want to use a shield or other weapon instead of ammunition like darts or shuriken is simple, arcane pool/enchants and breakage.
I see why this does not work with Projectile Ammo. However, Darts, Rope Darts, and Shuriken will work with Ranged Spellstrike because they are Ranged Weapons.
It's not a good idea to ever spend cash/pool points on improving ammo since they all break as soon as they hit, no matter what they are made
If you are using them to deliver the spell, you don't care about loosing it if it is cheap.
Adamantine Ammo: +60gp each. Other special materials are cheaper.Enchanted Ammo: +1 is +40gp, +2 is +160gp, +3 is +360gp, +4 is +640gp, and +5 is +1000gp each.
Masterwork Ammo: +6gp
Neither Ranged Weapon(Dart) nor Ranged Weapon(Rope Dart) is ammo, so they won't break on use.
D. The rope Dart like the meteor hammer is a 2-handed weapon (probably) making it also unusable during spellcombat.The Rope Dart is listed as an Exotic Eastern Ranged weapon. It does not state that it requires two hands. It is similar to the Meteor Hammer, which is a two handed weapon, but since a two-handed sword is similar to a one handed sword, this does not make the other weapon also two handed.The rope dart since it does not state whether it is 1 handed or 2 handed but does reference it most likely will be treated as such by most GM's.
As for the comment regarding 2 handed/1 handed swords is entirely obtuse. Each of those items specifically states what they are and how they are wielded where-as the item in question doesn't. Your argument makes no sense and has no bearing on the discussion at hand.We are here to discuss a throwing Magus, anything else should be left in it's own thread.
Under Weapon Training, the Heavy Blades group includes Longsword (one handed melee) and Greatsword (two handed melee). This is a group because everything in it is like every other thing in it. Yet some are one-handed and some are two-handed. Saying one weapon is like another does NOT require it to require the same number of hands to use. That was the point of my one/two handed sword comment.
The Rope Dart does not mention how many hands. Besides, where is the restriction against two-hands? It is not in the class or archtype text.
Since this thread is entirely about a Magus character using throwing weapons then anything that is not legal/usable for a magus should be omitted to avoid clutter and confusion.
The thread is not about a Throwing Magus, but about a Ranged Magus. Subtle difference, but important. A Rope Dart is a valid weapon for Ranged Spellstrike.
/cevah
Edit: Added masterwork costs.
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Well I see you have grabbed hold of this and refuse to let go of your stance and accept the facts for some reason so we'll address you again.
Shuriken ARE ammunition and follow those rules for destruction on successful use.
Benefit: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
As for Darts and Rope darts being ranged weapons is really irrelevant, their damage is low or they are 2-handed weapons making them less then optimal for any throwing based magus.
As for gold 60GP a pop is not cheap, heck 10GP a pop is not cheap. As the multitude of Gunslinger posts will attest that cost adds up quickly. Throw a simple +1 enchant on it kicks it up to 100GP a pop and that is anything but chump change and blows the WBL curve completely out of the water.
Your weapon training comment still means nothing, all of your examples explicitly state 1handed or 2 and I fail to see why you keep bringing it up.
The rope dart doesn't but references another weapon as an example so most GM's will look at that example given and see it's a 2hd weapon or simply do a google search like HERE and see that the rope dart IS a 2hd weapon and apply such rules as written.
If you had bothered to read the rules for Magi (which you should if you insist on commenting in a thread about them) you would see this nice rule here:
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
Making ALL of your weapon choices illegal. Only the spiked throwing shield is considered both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon for this purpose.
Finally the title of this thread is Oni-Spawn Throwing Myrmidarch Magus. Your attempts to redirect that are misguided at best.
At this point all I can say is stay on topic or move on, please stop trying to redirect this thread away from the stated purpose.
Well I see you have grabbed hold of this and refuse to let go of your stance and accept the facts for some reason so we'll address you again.
Shuriken ARE ammunition and follow those rules for destruction on successful use.
Benefit: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Look again. They are ranged weapons that act like ammo.
As for Darts and Rope darts being ranged weapons is really irrelevant, their damage is low or they are 2-handed weapons making them less then optimal for any throwing based magus.
The OP was not asking for optimal, but for options.
As for gold 60GP a pop is not cheap, heck 10GP a pop is not cheap. As the multitude of Gunslinger posts will attest that cost adds up quickly. Throw a simple +1 enchant on it kicks it up to 100GP a pop and that is anything but chump change and blows the WBL curve completely out of the water.
A wand of a 1st level spell costs 15gp a charge. People don't think that is expensive. If the cost gets you something worthwhile, then it is OK. These costs would only be for special versions, not for everyday use.
[A +1 Shuriken costs 46.2 gp, not 100 gp.]
Your weapon training comment still means nothing, all of your examples explicitly state 1handed or 2 and I fail to see why you keep bringing it up.
I keep bringing it up since you say it only works on a one handed weapon. Per RAW, the Rope Dart does NOT say it is one or two handed. You have no basis for disqualifying it per the RAW text.
The rope dart doesn't but references another weapon as an example so most GM's will look at that example given and see it's a 2hd weapon or simply do a google search like HERE and see that the rope dart IS a 2hd weapon and apply such rules as written.
I did a search, and will concede the real life version is two handed. That does not force the game version to be two handed. GM call.
If you had bothered to read the rules for Magi
I did. Did you not see the spoilered quotes?
(which you should if you insist on commenting in a thread about them) you would see this nice rule here:
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.Making ALL of your weapon choices illegal. Only the spiked throwing shield is considered both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon for this purpose.
And your point? The OP is asking about spellSTRIKE not spellCOMBAT. Spellstrike does not contain the "free hand" text.
Finally the title of this thread is Oni-Spawn Throwing Myrmidarch Magus. Your attempts to redirect that are misguided at best.
At this point all I can say is stay on topic or move on, please stop trying to redirect this thread away from the stated purpose.
OK. The title says "throwing". The class feature is called "Ranged Spellstrike". The OP wants to make the class feature work, not just any throwing.
/cevah
What about Chakrams? They are throwing weapons in the ranged category, but their description says they can also be wielded as melee weapons (light melee weapons from what I could find, though it's description doesn't specify if it counts as a light or one-handed melee weapon when doing that).
So they should work fine for Spellstrike, Ranged Spellstrike and Spell Combat, right? Of course they'd probably be a bit problematic in melee until you get heavy armor.
What about Chakrams? They are throwing weapons in the ranged category, but their description says they can also be wielded as melee weapons (light melee weapons from what I could find, though it's description doesn't specify if it counts as a light or one-handed melee weapon when doing that).
So they should work fine for Spellstrike, Ranged Spellstrike and Spell Combat, right? Of course they'd probably be a bit problematic in melee until you get heavy armor.
That's a sensible option--i was going to suggest the dagger for similar reasons (it's a 1H melee weapon with a range increment).
P.S. for a second i totally thought i had posted your post and forgotten about it.
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At this point cevah is simply arguing for the sake of arguing and ignoring simple facts laid out in the books to protect his point. This is not contributing anything else to the discussion at hand so we're done responding to him. Pointless arguments on the internet are not productive.
@corodix Chakrams are an option and one that can be used but they do have a few problems.
You can wield the chakram as a melee weapon, but it is not designed for such use; you take a –1 penalty on your attack roll with the weapon and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or cut yourself on the blade (half damage, no Strength modifier).
If used just for the ranged attacks it works just fine but when called upon to be used in melee the penalty to attack rolls and the constant reflex saves (a Magi's weakest save) to avoid damaging himself could be problematic.
Doable but the extra penalties makes it difficult.These are the reasons I keep going back to the throwing shield/shield spike combo. Simple, effective and does all 3 things your magus could want. Excellent ranged weapon, effective melee weapon and great defensive option.
One weapon that lets you attack a target no matter how close or far away from you they are, ups your defensive scores and makes for a visually exciting fighting style all for the cost of a single weapon is great. Throw in how well it works with a Magi's abilities (spellcombat & spellstrike, Arcane pool and ALL arcana) really does make this an exciting possibility.
Only issue is the archetype still stinks but this would make it salvageable.
Excellent ranged weapon, effective melee weapon and great defensive option.
this speaks to the same issue that i tried to point out earlier... in PF a "ranged weapon" specifically is not an effective melee weapon.* at the time i hadn't realized that throwing shields were listed as ranged weapons and was pointing out that i could not be used for ranged spellstrike... having it listed as a ranged weapon (Ultimate Combat, pg 251, as you pointed out) means you can only make melee attacks with it as an improvised weapons and makes it an invalid option for spell combat (which requires a light or one-handed melee weapon). IMHO that seems like a poor weapon choice for a magus...
* CRB, in the equipment section, at the beginning of the Weapons entry, under Melee and Ranged Weapons, says "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."
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Excellent ranged weapon, effective melee weapon and great defensive option.this speaks to the same issue that i tried to point out earlier... in PF a "ranged weapon" specifically is not an effective melee weapon.* at the time i hadn't realized that throwing shields were listed as ranged weapons and was pointing out that i could not be used for ranged spellstrike... having it listed as a ranged weapon (Ultimate Combat, pg 251, as you pointed out) means you can only make melee attacks with it as an improvised weapons and makes it an invalid option for spell combat (which requires a light or one-handed melee weapon). IMHO that seems like a poor weapon choice for a magus...
* CRB, in the equipment section, at the beginning of the Weapons entry, under Melee and Ranged Weapons, says "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."
Which is why I pointed out using shield spikes which turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon making it legal for ranged spellstrike and melee spellcombat at the same time, it also takes away all penalty for being an improvised weapon. Making it a superior all-in-one weapon for this archetype that requires maximum flexibility.
edit: Here's the relevant CRB entry.
Spiked Shield, Heavy or LightDescription: You can bash with a spiked shield instead of using it for defense.
Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon.
man, the interplay between a throwing shield and shield bashing is really murky... the throwing shield is just poorly written to begin with- it states that it can be thrown as a free action! technically (RAW) with a blinkback belt and quickdraw you could throw infinity shields per round, since drawing is a free action, throwing is a free action, and it returns instantly for no action... i assume/hope there is an errata/FAQ somewhere for that...
ignoring that- the default should be that throwing makes it a ranged weapon (and, as such, no longer usable as a melee weapon), but there's that awkward bit at the end about it having shield spikes too (which serve no function unless you can still bash), and there's no language prohibiting making a bash... poorly written (again). if your GM will let you use it that way then do- it becomes basically the only weapon in the game that is both a melee and ranged weapon (the net can do that too, if you take net adept). a GM could just as easily rule that, based on its table entry, a throwing shield counts a ranged weapon (and cannot be used with spell combat) even though it can be used to bash in melee (the entry for bashes say it counts as a martial weapon, not that it counts as a melee weapon...)- so be aware of that before you assume a GM (or all PFS GMs) will be ok with this.
From what I've gathered on the boards, people want Ranged Spellstrike to work with longbows, but apparently it won't because two handed weapon and all, among other things (actions for spellstriking, etc limiting it further).
I haven't read magus threads in six months, so someone correct me if there's been a FAQ this year changing/clarifying spellstrike. However, spell combat is what cannot be used with a two-handed weapon; a magus can spellstrike with a two-handed weapon as easily as a wizard wielding a staff can cast a touch range spell and deliver it with his free touch attack. Subsequently, there is no problem with a myrmidon using ranged spellstrike with a longbow.
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From what I've gathered on the boards, people want Ranged Spellstrike to work with longbows, but apparently it won't because two handed weapon and all, among other things (actions for spellstriking, etc limiting it further).I haven't read magus threads in six months, so someone correct me if there's been a FAQ this year changing/clarifying spellstrike. However, spell combat is what cannot be used with a two-handed weapon; a magus can spellstrike with a two-handed weapon as easily as a wizard wielding a staff can cast a touch range spell and deliver it with his free touch attack. Subsequently, there is no problem with a myrmidon using ranged spellstrike with a longbow.
Correct, the issue has always been with Spellcombat not working while wielding a bow, spellstrike is universally ok.
From what I've gathered on the boards, people want Ranged Spellstrike to work with longbows, but apparently it won't because two handed weapon and all, among other things (actions for spellstriking, etc limiting it further).I haven't read magus threads in six months, so someone correct me if there's been a FAQ this year changing/clarifying spellstrike. However, spell combat is what cannot be used with a two-handed weapon; a magus can spellstrike with a two-handed weapon as easily as a wizard wielding a staff can cast a touch range spell and deliver it with his free touch attack. Subsequently, there is no problem with a myrmidon using ranged spellstrike with a longbow.
to the best of my knowledge you are correct:
ranged spellstrike + longbow = :)spell combat + longbow = :(
Taking a look at the Myrmidarch archtype, and it seems pretty cool, but everybody says how it's a bit cracked or whatever, according to the boards.
Now, from what I understand, it's more of a fighter type than a caster type, due to weapon training and lesser spell progression. From what I've gathered on the boards, people want Ranged Spellstrike to work with longbows, but apparently it won't because two handed weapon and all, among other things (actions for spellstriking, etc limiting it further).
Has anyone considered that the Myrmidarch is primarily a melee fighter with the option to have some ranged abilities? Has anyone also thought about throwing weapons for this class?
An idea I've been thinking about is an Oni-Spawn Myrmidarch Magus who has been adopted by dwarves (a battlefield orphan, but his adoptive father couldn't bear to kill him due to the loss of his own sons). This gives him access to the dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon. Give him a throwing returning dwarven waraxe and how does that work with regards to ranged spellstrike and melee spellstrike?
I would figure it could make him a bit more viable with ranged vs melee, but I have no idea really. I've never even touched Magus so I've no idea what, besides Str, Con, and Int, I'd focus on. Feats, abilities, all of that.
At this point cevah is simply arguing for the sake of arguing and ignoring simple facts laid out in the books to protect his point. This is not contributing anything else to the discussion at hand so we're done responding to him. Pointless arguments on the internet are not productive.
It is you who keeps bringing up spellCOMBAT. The OP talks about spellSTRIKE. You keep saying spellstrike does not work with two handed weapons, when there is no such text. Stop confusing the two.
/cevah
Whew, thanks. Three cheers to the OP for the chutzpah to make a Str-based switch hitter myrmidarch then! Here's my $.02.
The clunky and rambling myrmidarch guide I put together a long time ago somewhat addresses the challenges of making a switch hitter. I didn't even bother to try a Str-based build because you start seeing your character concept repeatedly give up something major for minimal gain.
Okay, let's see the parameters we need to work with:
- Hungerseed tiefling
- Str-based magus
- myrmidarch archetype
- thrown weapons
What are the immediately noticable pros/cons?
- Pro - spell combat will be usable in the primary role as a melee combatant
- Pro - ranged spellstrike will still allow application of spells when switching to ranged combat
- Pro - weapon training opens up gloves of dueling, and with a thrown weapon applies to both melee/ranged attacks
- Con - 3/4 BAB as a melee combatant
- Con - thrown weapons have terrible crit threat ranges for focusing on damage, which ostensibly is what Str-based melee characters do
- Con - diminished spellcasting and the need for good physical attributes means there is no point and little ability to jack Int up for saving throws DCs... limiting the use of debuffing spellstrikes (ghoul touch, touch of fatigue, etc.)
- Con - see the two above cons... they get an extra mention combined together because those are the main two ways magi use spellstrike, arguably their most important ability
- Con - you're losing spell recall and knowledge pool, limiting your spellcasting further (as if diminished spellcasting weren't bad enough)
- Con - you're feat-starved both for using thrown weapons and for possibly needing to spent feats on arcana lost to the archetype
Okay, that doesn't look pretty. We are going to make it shine as much as possible to build a fun character, however.
Attribs - Str, then Dex/Con/Int, then Wis, then Cha. We have four attribs that cannot be ignored. Assuming a 20-pt buy, could do something like Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 5.
Weapons - We probably want something one-handed and with as good a crit range/multiplier as possible. We could plan on taking weapon training (spears), and focus on the sibat as a weapon of choice. Sibat is a melee weapon that can be thrown as opposed to a thrown ranged weapon, an important distinction when you consider we can make any weapon keen at 5th level. Javelins w/amentum can be backup for when we need to throw at real ranges.
Alternately, we could plan on taking weapon training (hvy blades) and use a scimitar with chakram for ranged weapons. This isn't technically focusing on one weapon, but it means we can one-hand or two-hand in melee with the magus' weapon of choice. The chakram just gives us a good damage, 30' range increment thrown weapon for when we need to switch it up.
Feats - Quickdraw. Any build with thrown weapons has to have it.
Weapon Focus in primary weapon. Extra hits mean extra damage.
Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot. Mileage with these depends on how often we're attacking at range instead of in melee.
Power Attack. The go-to feat for melee damage-dealing, which will . Keep in mind that we're 3/4 BAB and -2 on attack rolls when using spell combat, which will diminish the value of Power Attack. We could pick up Furious Focus, but that will only apply when not using spell combat and will cost another feat.
Extra Arcana. We're losing arcana to our archetype, so this could be important.
Opening Volley. Open with a ranged spellstrike while closing with the enemy, get a +4 to the next melee attack roll. Not shabby.
Reach Spell. This could see some use. Combine it with two-world magic and wayang spellhunter traits to have a touch of fatigue cantrip applicable to ranged spellstrike. That's a lot of resources for one gimmick, however, and would require preparing both touch of fatigue and reach touch of fatigue as cantrips in order to switch hit with the cantrip.
Arcana - Arcane Accuracy. This is decent to gain a small insight bonus on attack rolls. Every point helps.
Close Range. Any prepared ray spells can be delivered via ranged or normal spellstrike.
Hasted Assault. This is almost mandatory at 9th level.
Lingering Pain. It's a nice anti-caster arcana, particularly when you can apply it at range.
Spell Blending. Get it. Pick up ghoul touch. It's a nice way to shut down most anything without a good Fort save.
Wand Wielder. This could see some use with spell combat.
As an Oni-Spawn, you get: +2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Cha; Disguise, Intimidate; Alter Self
Unfortunately, both skills are Cha based, and you take a hit there. You also do not get Disguise as a class skill. Might be worth looking at a trait for this.
Of benefit, however, is Alter Self 1/day. It lets you look like a humanoid of small or medium size. This can net you a +2 Str or a +2 Dex, and a +10 on Disguise. While altered, you loose your resistances, and darkvision, but you gain some qualities of the humanoid you look like. Could be useful to blend in while in town. Say someone in town thinks you are an easy mark. Drop the disguise, and they want to be elsewhere.
Of note is the racial feat Fiend Sight. Improve your vision, and if taken twice get See In Darkness.
For feats, there are:
Distance Thrower .. Reduce ranged penalties for thrown weapons by 2
Point-Blank Shot .. +1 attack and damage on targets within 30 feet
Precise Shot .. No penalty for shooting into melee [requires PBS]
Charging Hurler .. May use charge rules to make thrown weapon attack [requires PBS]
Far Shot .. Decrease ranged penalties by half [requires PBS]
With Far Shot & Distance Thrower, you can get a big increase in range.
Max range thrown gets a penalty of -3 (or -2) instead of -8.
Max range projectile gets a penalty of -8 (or -7) instead of -18.
Any range weapon at double range has no penalty instead of -2.
Any range weapon at triple range gets a penalty of -1 (or 0) instead of -4.
Not sure which to apply first, hence the parenthetical.
This can let you be effective at long range rather than only short range.
/cevah
Not sure which to apply first, hence the parenthetical.
I think you'd apply Far Shot first since it replaces the range increment penalty, then apply the Distance Thrower modifier. Even if you have a GM ruling that you apply Distance Thrower before Far Shot, the penalty reduction is still great. Nice mention, the PBS/Distance Thrower/Far Shot feat selection really helps throwers considering the small range increment of most thrown weapons.