Scarred Witch Doctor Bonus Spells

[Lej]

Scarred Witch Doctor wrote:

Constitution Dependent

A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence.

Intelligence should be used for bonus spells since it is not mentioned above. Is this intentional or an accidental omission?

[blackbloodtroll]

FAQ'd.

[Bigdaddyjug]

That would be really dumb if that were the case, but it appears that RAW it is in fact how it works. FAQed as well.

[James Risner]

FAQ'd, quirky RAW probably not RAI.

[Bigdaddyjug]

No wonder it's so cold. James and I are starting to agree...

[James Risner]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

No wonder it's so cold. James and I are starting to agree...

Don't let one thing we disagree about color our entire world ;-)

I'm sure we agree vastly more than disagree

[Cheapy]

Since they list everything it affects, and don't have a blanket statement, I would guess that this is their attempt at a balancing factor.

[Kazaan]

Guess you can't dump Int straight down to 7 as a SWD. But leaving it at 12-13 is better than needing to pump it up significantly. Also, you can still "teach" your mask new spells, supposedly by painting it with ashes of a scroll or letting it have some "alone" time with another witch's familiar. Which, of course, leads to some hilarious scenes:

Scarred Witch Doctor: That would be a handy spell to have. Would you mind teaching it to me?
Other Witch: Sure, hey Fluffy!
Black Cat: Don't call me that... you know damn well that's not my name.
Other Witch: Oh don't be such a drama queen. Here, I want you to teach a spell to another witch.
Black Cat: *sigh* fine... where's his familiar.
SWD: *produces wooden mask*
Black Cat: ^O.o^
SWD: *hangs mask on a bush branch* Alright, now you two have fun.
Black Cat: ^-.-^ you can't be serious...
Other Witch: Alright, we're going off to the tavern for a drink. You'll be done by the time we get back, right?
Black Cat: ^O.O^ WHAT‽‽‽
SWD: Bye Fluffy.
Black Cat: ffs they ARE serious...
*the two witches walk off*
Black Cat: ^ಠ_ಠ^

[williamoak]

I dont see it as much of a balancing factor (seeing as a SWD will still be fairly limited in melee, even with UNGODLY con). But this deserves an official answer. I want my bonus spells somehow.

P.S.: Witches learning spells is weird anyway. Does the familiar , like eat a scroll or something?

[Kazaan]

williamoak wrote:

I dont see it as much of a balancing factor (seeing as a SWD will still be fairly limited in melee, even with UNGODLY con). But this deserves an official answer. I want my bonus spells somehow.

P.S.: Witches learning spells is weird anyway. Does the familiar , like eat a scroll or something?

PRD wrote:

Witches can add new spells to their familiars through several methods. A witch can only add spells to her familiar if those spells belong to the witch's spell list.

Spells Gained at a New Level: A witch's familiar learns a certain amount of lore and magic as the witch adventures. Whenever a witch gains a level, she may add two spells from the witch spell list to her familiar. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast.

Familiar Teaching Familiar: A witch's familiar can learn spells from another witch's familiar. To accomplish this, the familiars must spend one hour per level of the spell being taught in communion with one another. At the end of this time, the witch whose familiar is learning a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check succeeds, the familiar has learned the spell and the witch may utilize it the next time she prepares spells. If the check fails, the familiar has failed to learn the spell and cannot try to learn that spell again until the witch has gained another rank in Spellcraft. Most witches require a spell of equal or greater level in return for this service. If a familiar belongs to a witch that has died, it only retains its knowledge of spells for 24 hours, during which time it is possible to coerce or bribe the familiar into teaching its spells to another, subject to GM discretion.

Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.

That literally is one of the ways you teach a new spell to your familiar; you burn a scroll and then "feed" it to them. It can be re-fluffed in the case of the SWD's mask; most common I've seen is to smear the ashes over the mask or make it into a paint which is then "absorbed" into the mask. But the mechanical process is, essentially, destroy the scroll and then make a check to determine if your familiar learned the spell; success or failure, the scroll is lost in the process.

[williamoak]

I just find a funny type of mystical mumbo jumbo. Good fluff though. I can only imagine a cat familiar hacking up a "scroll ball".

[blackbloodtroll]

williamoak wrote:

I just find a funny type of mystical mumbo jumbo. Good fluff though. I can only imagine a cat familiar hacking up a "scroll ball".

Scroll dust is like catnip for familiars.

They will do lines of it, and love you for it.

[Malle]

I'd like to see this answered. RAW is clear as day, but it could easily be an oversight, so I'm not sure about RAI.

[Kazaan]

Considering you can add every single spell from your list to your familiar by other means, I'd say even if it was an oversight, they'd still claim it was intended.

[williamoak]

That might be the case kazaan (though I dont quite like it).

There are still quite a few cases of oversight; some adressed some not. The most common example is ranger archetypes that lose favored enemy yet keep various powers that only work with favored enemy (like master hunter, or quarry). There's also a note in the d20pfsrd in the "martial artist" archetype page where they specifically mention that it was forgotten to remove/replace the "abundant step" ability (since they get no KI). The editors are only human, and there are quite a lot of things that can be forgotten.

[Kazaan]

The editors should have taken Racial Heritage so they count as races other than just Human.

[Diego Rossi]

Kazaan wrote:

Guess you can't dump Int straight down to 7 as a SWD. But leaving it at 12-13 is better than needing to pump it up significantly. Also, you can still "teach" your mask new spells, supposedly by painting it with ashes of a scroll or letting it have some "alone" time with another witch's familiar. Which, of course, leads to some hilarious scenes:

Scarred Witch Doctor: That would be a handy spell to have. Would you mind teaching it to me?
Other Witch: Sure, hey Fluffy!
Black Cat: Don't call me that... you know damn well that's not my name.
Other Witch: Oh don't be such a drama queen. Here, I want you to teach a spell to another witch.
Black Cat: *sigh* fine... where's his familiar.
SWD: *produces wooden mask*
Black Cat: ^O.o^
SWD: *hangs mask on a bush branch* Alright, now you two have fun.
Black Cat: ^-.-^ you can't be serious...
Other Witch: Alright, we're going off to the tavern for a drink. You'll be done by the time we get back, right?
Black Cat: ^O.O^ WHAT‽‽‽
SWD: Bye Fluffy.
Black Cat: ffs they ARE serious...
*the two witches walk off*
Black Cat: ^ಠ_ಠ^

Black Cat: Great claw scratcher, let's scratch the spell on it

(I don't want to think how a familiar that mark his territory with urine would "teach" the spell to the mask)

FAQed

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Um where did people forget what "Bonus Spells" are... Int based bonus spells are more about being able to cast additional spells, not getting more spells known.

[Kazaan]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:

Um where did people forget what "Bonus Spells" are... Int based bonus spells are more about being able to cast additional spells, not getting more spells known.

It seems as though you're talking about:

prd wrote:

Spells: A witch can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 2–10. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).

That's bonus spells per day based on Int, which SWD swaps out for Con.

What I and others are talking about:

prd wrote:

Witch's Familiar: A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells. Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch's familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1st-level spells of the witch's choice. The witch also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual (see sidebar).

They're two completely different things. A Witch gets a number of extra lvl 1 spells at their first Witch level (beyond the default 3) equal to their Int bonus and this is not listed as being substituted by Constitution Dependency while bonus spells cast per day is listed.

[Mith'aj the Tactful]

From the d20PFSRD:

Quote:

Constitution Dependent

A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence.

There is nothing stating high-stat bonus spells come from Con. It seems like an oversight, but James Jacobs says his 'gut feeling' is that it's intention, and Int is still needed.

James Jacobs' statement

[Kazaan]

Well that's a stealth errata. When did they switch it from bonus spells per day to spells known at lvl 1?

[Mith'aj the Tactful]

Kazaan wrote:

Well that's a stealth errata. When did they switch it from bonus spells per day to spells known at lvl 1?

I'm not sure, good question. The above is the only form in which I've seen it.

[Kazaan]

Last time I had to reference it, it referred to bonus spells per day. I double-checked the PRD now (since SRD isn't always reliable) and even there it now doesn't have the reference to bonus spells per day but instead references bonus spells known at lvl 1. I just don't know when the switch was made.

[James Risner]

Kazaan wrote:

I just don't know when the switch was made.

You sure there was a switch? You have a 1st print copy of the book with different wording?

[Kazaan]

James Risner wrote:

Kazaan wrote:

I just don't know when the switch was made.

You sure there was a switch? You have a 1st print copy of the book with different wording?

No, I just remember it listed in the PRD differently when I referenced it.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, it's fixed?

[James Risner]

Kazaan wrote:

No, I just remember it listed in the PRD differently when I referenced it.

Then I suspect it was a transcription to the PRD error that was fixed?

[Kazaan]

I suppose so. So Int applies to bonus spells you know at lvl 1, but now it doesn't grant additional preparation slots.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Kazaan wrote:

Well that's a stealth errata. When did they switch it from bonus spells per day to spells known at lvl 1?

I have the first printing of the ARG, and it says spells known at 1st level.

That said, I read it as Con replaces Int for all class abilities. So, when I had a player run a Scarred Witch Doctor I allowed bonus spells per day based on his Con.

[williamoak]

I just thought I should bump this, since there seems to have been some advancement. The recent "Monster Codex" has a SWD NPC who uses CON for it's bonus spells per day (it has 16 con, and gets a bonus spell at levels 1, 2 & 3, while only having 12 int). I believe we can consider this question mostly answered. (Save, perhaps, for spells at level 1)

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

williamoak wrote:

I just thought I should bump this, since there seems to have been some advancement. The recent "Monster Codex" has a SWD NPC who uses CON for it's bonus spells per day (it has 16 con, and gets a bonus spell at levels 1, 2 & 3, while only having 12 int). I believe we can consider this question mostly answered. (Save, perhaps, for spells at level 1)

Spells at level 1 IS answered, it always was... the Witch Doctor ability specifically calls out "spells known at 1st level"

Witch Doctor Constitution Dependent wrote:

A scarred witch doctor uses Constitution instead of Intelligence when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, her spell save DCs, number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes normally determined by her Intelligence.

The only thing STILL not clear is bonus spells, but it seems a published NPC would suggest precedent for using Con for literally everything, the RAW still doesn't support that. So, please if anyone hasn't FAQ this and maybe someday Paizo will realize that the RAW is not clear (even more so now with an NPC seeming to support a RAI interpretation over the RAW)

[TorresGlitch]

I agree, let's FAQ it!
The archetype already loses out on the first hex and the familiar. (The fixed hex' scarred skin' is nothing compared to Slumber!)