Party just hit level five. The ranger feels way more useful than I do. He is playing a switch hitter with feats in 2h weapons and bows and is able to deal a significant amount of damage consistently. His higher wisdom makes his perception better than mine. He also has skills points in disable device, stealth, escape artists, and sleight of hand.
I sorta feel like my character is pretty useless, perhaps I built it poorly. We are also playing mythic, so that opens up several options.
I am playing a homebrew race that grants power attack and Elven Curveblade proficiency.
Level 5 Rogue Scout
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Feats
Race: Power Attack
1: Agile Maneuvers
Rogue Trick: Finesse Rogue
3: Furious Focus
Rogue Trick: Weapon Training
5: Extra Rogue Talent: Bleeding Sneak Attack
I use an elven curved blade. My damage is nowhere near as consistent as his and even out of combat I find myself really struggling to keep useful. Please help!
Pointbuy.
The GM hasn't said much about, "redos," but I know if I approached him with reasonable changes he would definitely consider them. What did you have in mind?
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I prefer going ranged with sweet stealth, search your battleground for cover and walk past it while stealthing to be "hidden" and then fire VS their flatfooted dc with a +2 to hit.
Next round - rince and repeat (can use same cover)
But if u wanna stay melee with that Elven blade I say; keep up the flanking!
You can do this in 3 ways:
- 5foot step before full round attacking (remember that you don't have to stand directly behind them, a vertical line also works)
oooxo
ooyoo
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X=you/Allie
- use acrobatics to get to flanking position without provoking Attack of opportunity (weak strategy since you will only have like 25% chance to succeed.)
- convince your party you'll lead the way, constantly looking for traps and stealthing. As soon as the battle begins your wizard and cleric boosts your AC with (+4+2), you then fight defensively as a AC wall. You don't need acrobatics since you won't get hit when you provoke AoO and u've become the teams effective scout and tank for early game.
Do you have or will you reasonably be able to soon obtain an agile Weapon? If not, then in order to get your damage up, you need to either give up the ECB for a Scimitar and replace Agile Maneuvers with Dervish Dance or switch your Strength and Dex (and replace Agile Maneuvers with something useful). Alternately, if you're able to get into flanking position often enough, switch Agile Maneuvers for Two Weapon Fighting and get twice as many sneak attack opportunities.
Beyond that though, there's not much more to be done; you are going to continue to be overshadowed by the Ranger much of the time - he has only two fewer skill points per level than you (assuming equal Intelligence modifiers) and he's a full BAB class with bonus feats while you're a 3/4 BAB with some situational precision damage.
Yeah... If the Ranger insists on taking a Rogue-ish role, there is not much Rogues can do.
That said, since you're using a 2-handed weapon, what is the point of using Weapon Finesse instead of focusing on Str first, Dex second?
Oh no Not another rogues are bad thread! Ouch Ouch! I'm dead already!
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This option dose not change much in your build. However there are a few things you can do with out changing the build at all.
First:
Feet's & Rogue Talent's: You don't need Agile Maneuvers as you have no combat maneuvers to make. Even if you where to take combat expertise now and then take improved disarm. That is still keyed off your dex due to using a weapon to do the maneuver. Bleeding sneak attack is nice for low levels of play and it dose help some at high level. However there are much better options open to you.
Replacing them with Toughness, and Surprise Attack.
Rogue Archetype: Scout is a good archetype just not one that will help you do more damage. As you can only ever make one attack per round when it works. Then to really make it work you need spring attack that's a 3 feet chain. So you can move before and after you attack. You sill get sneak attack damage but over all. Your damage will be lower then a none scout rogue that just takes a full attack action from flank. I suggest you give the Bandit archetype a look. They have the ability at level 4 to give you a move and standard action in the surprise round. Combine that with the Surprise Attack you can get your sneak attack damage in the surprise round most of the time.
Tactics of playing the rogue. I'll try and help you with a few things on playing rogues and setting up for sneak attack damage.
1: Never go before the main fighter in the party. Make sure that he is engaged in fighting. Before you move in to steal his thunder by removing the spleen. By letting the fighter engage first you know where you need to move to make sneak attack.
2: Never let any one know where you are until it's time to remove the spleen. Not that you should stealth all the time. It's more don't be in front and do be flashy about what your doing. Let them think your harmless right up until you remove the spleen with sneak attack damage.
3: Do not use range attacks to deliver sneak attack damage. This is a waste of time. You will only get one shot. And if there close enough to sneak attack with range. You can close with them with a move action.
4: In special cases you will come across casters that think there god. Then they find out that there spells do not protect them from stabbed death. Stealth is not removed by most magic effects. That's why I recommend taking the step up, following step, and step up and strike. You can sneak in and take out any caster. Even if your first attack dose not get it done. They can not run away with out provoking two AoO. One from Step up and strike, and one from normal movement out of your threated area. Taking combat reflexes in combination with the chain is important.
I was planning on taking Mythic Weapon Finesse which allows me to use dex instead of strength for two-handed attacks.
I will be able to get into flanking a very consistent number of times. Should I switch to a TWF build that uses two-weapon feint when I can't get into flanking?
Oh no Not another rogues are bad thread! Ouch Ouch! I'm dead already!
Oh, thanks for marginalizing my concerns. I chose this character because I like the character concept. I came here for ADVICE to see if I could make it work better with the party. Why don't you just delete your post or provide ADVICE.
Remember, DPR is not the only way to contribute. In fact, it is often the least effective way to contribute. In many situations a little battlefield control can go a long way.
The Blind Fighting feat combined with some smoke bombs will do wonders for your sneak attack capabilities.
Retraining Agile Maneuvers for Nimble Moves will let you go where the ranger cannot/will not.
If you want to use the Ranger for a melee partner then the assault leader rogue trick (and later the opportunist rogue trick) can help. This can be used to make the ranger more effective when you are adjacent. Pretty soon he will miss you when you are not nearby.
Weapon Focus(Elven Curve Blade) & Dazzling Display can be quite effective for debuffing mass numbers of enemies.
One level of Cavalier (Order of the Dragon) and the boon companion feat will turn you into an unencumbered knight (see Knights of the Inner Sea) with your own built in flanking partner. Additionally your challenge class abilities will buff yourself and your allies. That way your friends ranger can be all the rogue he wants to be and you can be the knight that knows every dirty trick in the book.
The Shadowdancer prestige class can be quite effective.
The minor and major magic rogue tricks can be quite useful. Be creative.
There are a lot of ways to improve your effectiveness. I suggest you reread the rogue talents again with an eye towards "what can I take to make the whole party more effective" instead of "what can I take to up my DPR". Your build makes it obvious that this was your line of thought.
Best of Luck,
Weslocke
This option dose not change much in your build. However there are a few things you can do with out changing the build at all.
First:
Feet's & Rogue Talent's: You don't need Agile Maneuvers as you have no combat maneuvers to make. Even if you where to take combat expertise now and then take improved disarm. That is still keyed off your dex due to using a weapon to do the maneuver. Bleeding sneak attack is nice for low levels of play and it dose help some at high level. However there are much better options open to you.
Replacing them with Toughness, and Surprise Attack.
Rogue Archetype: Scout is a good archetype just not one that will help you do more damage. As you can only ever make one attack per round when it works. Then to really make it work you need spring attack that's a 3 feet chain. So you can move before and after you attack. You sill get sneak attack damage but over all. Your damage will be lower then a none scout rogue that just takes a full attack action from flank. I suggest you give the Bandit archetype a look. They have the ability at level 4 to give you a move and standard action in the surprise round. Combine that with the Surprise Attack you can get your sneak attack damage in the surprise round most of the time.Tactics of playing the rogue. I'll try and help you with a few things on playing rogues and setting up for sneak attack damage.
1: Never go before the main fighter in the party. Make sure that he is engaged in fighting. Before you move in to steal his thunder by removing the spleen. By letting the fighter engage first you know where you need to move to make sneak attack.
2: Never let any one know where you are until it's time to remove the spleen. Not that you should stealth all the time. It's more don't be in front and do be flashy about what your doing. Let them think your harmless right up until you remove the spleen with sneak attack damage.
3: Do not use range attacks to deliver sneak attack damage. This is a waste of time. You will only get one shot. And...
You don't take scout to focus on moving and attacking, it's for those times when you have to move and attack. It's pretty great.
You don't need agile maneuvers or finesse rogue. And you sure don't need extra talent. If you want bleeding sneak, take that instead of finesse. Or you can take combat trick: toughness, combat reflexes, improved initiative(make sure you get that first round sneak attack in), toughness, cleave(+scout=good even if it doesn't do extra sneak attack), quick draw (also to make sure you get that first round sneak attack in, even if you have to do ranged). Then grab another one at level 5. You could also spend your talents on ki and vanishing trick off the ninja list if you want (that's how I play my rogue).
As for out of combat, with a switch hitter, the ranger's dex shouldn't be as good as yours typically, and he has fewer skill points, so you should be ahead of him in skills, especially on trap finding.
Are you using traits? Grab one that improves initiative and maybe one that helps out your skill viability.
Do you have or will you reasonably be able to soon obtain an agile Weapon?
He's got 14 Strength (Strx1.5 = +3) and 18 Dexterity (Dex x 1 = +4). Going Agile would increase his damage by... one. Bumping to a +2 weapon would yield +4 damage after Power Attack. And that's without Furious Focus.
In other words, since you're using two-handed Power Attack, unless Agile would increase your damage by more than +4, don't go Agile.
Magpied: You're doing fine. Agile Maneuvers is pretty weak here, though. It only adds +2 to your maneuvers, maneuvers which you're unlikely to want to attempt anyways. Though I'm an Improved Initiative man myself, I can see Iron Will being a solid first-level choice as well.
Anyways...
You're in the "drought years" of the Rogue class. Rogues, in my experience, start turning on around Rog7, once you've overcome the hump of being down two BAB you enter the levels where the awesome buff spells like haste, heroism, and greater magic weapon really start flying. Multiclassing can help a lot here. Perhaps a rebuild...
Urban Barbarian1/Scout Rogue4
1st: Power Attack, Furious Focus
3rd/Rogue2: Finesse Rogue, (any feat)
5th/Rogue4: Weapon Training, (any feat)
Though you'll have one less sneak die, you'll have Controlled Rage, which can either add +2 to hit and +2 AC if you rage for +4 Dex, or +3 to damage (about the equivalent of an extra d6 of sneak attack!) if you take the standard rage for +4 Str and +4 Con. Also... a furious curveblade is a great thing, as it adds more than another +1 to both to-hit and damage, and it stacks with the greater magic weapon spells that your party should be (if they're smart) providing later.
If Barbarian isn't your thing, consider Fighter1 or 2. Point being, a level dip can really help you get through the "drought years."
Also, find out if your Ranger tablemate is an Urban Ranger. If he is, consider swapping into a Rogue archetype which dumps Trapfinding, because it's redundant. If he's not an Urban Ranger, suggest that he becomes one, so you can freely swap into a Rogue archetype which dumps Trapfinding.
If the Ranger is better than you at traps, then it's best to accept that and boost your own abilities with an archetype which drops Trapfinding.
So, I hope all that helps. I had a friend who did exactly this sort of Curveblade/Power Attack/Finesse build (btw, Furious Focus and Scout8 are a great combo), and around level 10 he became the party member with the highest attack bonus, even higher than the maxed-out FighterX/Alchemist4, because he stuck with it...
...and because he picked up a furious courageous curveblade instead of an agile one.
-Matt
Do you have or will you reasonably be able to soon obtain an agile Weapon?He's got 14 Strength (Strx1.5 = +3) and 18 Dexterity (Dex x 1 = +4). Going Agile would increase his damage by... one. Bumping to a +2 weapon would yield +4 damage after Power Attack. And that's without Furious Focus.
In other words, since you're using two-handed Power Attack, unless Agile would increase your damage by more than +4, don't go Agile.
Magpied: You're doing fine. Agile Maneuvers is pretty weak here, though. It only adds +2 to your maneuvers, maneuvers which you're unlikely to want to attempt anyways. Though I'm an Improved Initiative man myself, I can see Iron Will being a solid first-level choice as well.
Although, your choice of Power Attack at Rog1 wasn't actually a legal choice, since Power Attack has a BAB +1 prerequisite. Anyways...
You're in the "drought years" of the Rogue class. Rogues, in my experience, start turning on around Rog7, once you've overcome the hump of being down two BAB and the buff spells start flying. Multiclassing can help a lot here. Perhaps a rebuild...
Urban Barbarian1/Scout Rogue4
1st: Power Attack, Furious Focus
3rd/Rogue2: Finesse Rogue, (any feat)
5th/Rogue4: Weapon Training, (any feat)Though you'll have one less sneak die, you'll have Controlled Rage, which can either add +2 to hit and +2 AC if you rage for +4 Dex, or +3 to damage (about the equivalent of an extra d6 of sneak attack!) if you take the standard rage for +4 Str and +4 Con. Also... a furious curveblade is a great thing, as it adds more than another +1 to both to-hit and damage, and it stacks with the greater magic weapon spells that your party should be (if they're smart) providing later.
If Barbarian isn't your thing, consider Fighter1 or 2. Point being, a level dip can really help you get through the "drought years."
Also, find out if your Ranger tablemate is an Urban Ranger. If he is, consider swapping into a Rogue archetype which dumps Trapfinding,...
Actually, agile is useless because he's planning on taking the mythic feat for it.
Since the feat actually replaces STR with DEX, meaning you still get that sweet power attack bonus, I'd drop strength to 10. I'm not sure what your racial bonuses are, but if you did a 20 point buy, I don't think you started with an 18 DEX, you could try to make that happen.
Also, Matt, he got power attack by way of a homebrew race.
Also, Matt, he got power attack by way of a homebrew race.
Doh, that's what I get for reading and posting at work. I went and corrected the post. From the looks of it, Mythic Weapon Finesse would allow dropping Strength to 10. However, if Magpied left it at 14, he could probably do a lot better by taking some other superpowered Mythic feat that doesn't simply add, what, +3 to his damage rolls?
-Matt
I'm finding a hard time picking Mythic feats, it all seems a jumble to me.