Grayst Sevilla

[Charles Scholz]

Should this Henchman have the Undead trait?

[Nullpunkt]

Nope.

Rise of the Runelords:

Not yet. His stat block in the Anniversary Edition says human fighter.

[Vic Wertz]

In the RPG, a DC 24 Heal check will tell you...:

Grayst is infected with ghoul fever—when he dies, he will rise again as a ghoul, but he's not (un)dead yet.

[Nathaniel Gousset]

Too bad that there isn't anything in the actual pathfinder card game where you encounter it that told you so too. But I guess that the people that buy and play the card game doesn't desserve a story... They have pretty picture they should be happy with...

[kysmartman]

Is the horse Nathaniel beating dead enough for it to have the Undead trait, or is it not dead enough yet? Sheesh.

[Vic Wertz]

Nathaniel,

I appreciate your desire to learn more about the story. I really mean that—I think it's great! But the ACG is just not the ideal vehicle to give you the level of detail you seek.

I think that perhaps it might help if you had a sense of the scale of the story of Rise of the Runelords. The Anniversary Edition of the RPG Adventure Path is more than 400 pages long. Sure, there are a lot of RPG stats and maps in there, but if you were to extract just the story material, it would still be a couple hundred pages long. It's a story that took my own gaming group well over a year to play through at a rate of several hours per week. It's a story that our partners at Big Finish are adapting into a full-cast audio drama that spans 6 CDs, and even that has to leave a lot of stuff out. I could easily see a novel adaptation taking six volumes as well. It's far more than we could possibly fit on a bunch of cards.

Honestly, just giving you a reasonably detailed overview of the storyline and a worthwhile introduction to the characters and places we put in the ACG would probably fill a book twice the length of the rulebook. (And no, it's not realistic to put such a book in the game, as it would probably add $10 to the price, which would result in *lower* sales, not higher sales—and frankly, a bunch of people would never even open it.) The ACG is a format where we can paint the essence of the story in broad strokes, but that's about it.

Like I said, I'm glad that you want to learn more about the story; I hope you'll look at the RPG volume or the Big Finish audios when they come out.

[Nathaniel Gousset]

Ok, I am sorry, I think I kinda overreacted. Wich mean I am passionnate about the game ;)

I think the trouble is that there is no wildly avaliable pathfinder film nor novel so the minors characters are a lot harder to be known that thoses from other card games.

You are true that the material is avaliable, and that conveniently you are selling thus material ;)

But, with all due respect, I think a middle ground could be achieved. Your position make you fully aware and well versed in the Pathfinder universe so, perhaps you wont see the trouble as much as people who don't know it all.

We don't need a detailed story nor deptiction of all and every character, but currently the cards usually provide no information nor fluff at all. Comparing to the other cards games in existence (or boardgames like Descent by exemple) the lacking is blatant.

A lot of PAGC card have no information, nor fluff, nor description about them in the rulebook, the card box nor the scenario cards. Just a name and game mechanism information. That is odd because you clearly are telling a story with them, or the game wont be scenario driven.

I really think the game would benefit from each character/allies/henchman/wilain having a tiny bit of fluff on it (or more of it for some). Currently at most we have a sentence that refer to him, but not even everyone have it.

I fully understand you cant provide a full AP book for free in each box. But I also think a single page resume would be a great boon to the game, and manageable for no large cost increase.

Again I invite you to compare PAGC with other games from other editor and perhaps you will understand better what I mean by integrating more story element into the physical component.

Best regards, and thanks for your games and dedication to them.

[TClifford]

It's nice to be passionate about something, but does your passion always have to be negative?

[Bidmaron]

Well, I haven't appreciated most of his tirade, but I do believe he has a point in his last post. A little flavor text would normally fit on the cards, and it would help to make an outstanding game even better, IMO.

[Nathaniel Gousset]

TClifford wrote:

It's nice to be passionate about something, but does your passion always have to be negative?

Sorry TC but, for me, pointing out default and things that could be made better for next time isn't negative. Being negative would be to acknowledge default and accept them, even endorse them. Burning energy and suggesting changes isn't negative.

Your systematic comments about me, personnaly, that is an entirely different thing.

[Mike Selinker]

So, let me address this a bit. I'm not speaking of anyone in specific, just in general about the tens of thousands of comments we've gotten so far.

Being helpful involves pointing out things that you don't like. As long as criticism identifies things that might be made better next time, it's welcome. However, when comments are almost always negative, and they come with a demanding tone, designers and developers eventually tune them out. We do so when we think it is more important for the commenter to believe he or she has been acknowledged as correct, rather than actually address something of concern. Content matters, but tone also matters.

That said, all commenters are welcome and encouraged to comment. We don't want to shut anything down. And we're happy that anyone wants to play our game.

Mike

[Hawkmoon269]

I'm not at all familiar with the Pathfinder universe outside of the ACG, and I'm able to enjoy it very much. I do wonder about the named Allies and can "feel" that there is more of a story there, even if it is sometimes just out of reach. That being said, the game is quite enjoyable as is. Obviously there is limited space to add the flavor to the game on the cards, and I for one wouldn't want the cost to go up just so more flavor could be added. I'm happy with the balance of cost to flavor as is.

But I'm not opposed to more flavor at an optional additional cost or for free. One option would be to have a Wiki about the game that could explain more of the background of the characters, systematically catalog updates and clarifications on cards and rules, stuff like that. Obviously it'd be up to Paizo to figure out what they want to make publicly available and whether this would work or not, I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Regardless, great game. Looking forward to starting Skinsaw soon.

[kysmartman]

The only thing is that no other game does what Nathaniel wants. Think about it, the entire Lovecraft series has nothing in them about his books, yet you can easily play the game without knowing any of that stuff. Mage Knight has practically no history on the characters yet gets very high theme marks from everyone. The best example would be the D&D board game series (CR, WoA, and LoD) have even less info about the characters than PACG. Hell, even Magic The Gathering requires you to buy books to understand the story, if you really want to know the story.

Edit: The only game that I can think of that gives you the info Nathaniel wants is the comic book style card game that I can't think of the name. But that is a game created out of its own world (though the heroes are clearly knockoffs of actual comic book heroes) so they had to have all of the backstory in the manual.

Sure, maybe have a little bit more fluff on the cards because Lord knows they need something to gussy them up as everyone agrees they're a little plain, but if you have to have a bunch more info on the Pathfinder Universe, buy the books or comics. Paizo isn't going to give this stuff away for free, nor should they. Paizo's whole thing was to develop a card game that would expand their Pathfinder brand to new people while giving existing RPG'ers something else to play in this universe. This way new people would want to buy their books or comics while the RPG'ers would get to play some more in that universe.

Now, if they wanted to put in a special comic in the next base set featuring the heroes and the adventure path for that set, that would be a great idea that would only bump the price up $5 or so (their comics cost $3.99 on this site btw). So, people that wanted a little bit more info could get it without costing Paizo money.

[Calthaer]

I disagree with the Frenchman about more story being required for this game (the Frenchman's tone is another matter entirely). A big, big benefit with this game - and a huge reason why I personally am playing it (rather than most video games these days) - is the fact that it can be played in bite-sized portions with reasonable time limits. I, and likely many others, don't have six hours a week, every week, and several other friends with the same amount of disposable time, to do the large-scale RPG epic adventure. Most of my friends can get together for one 4-5 hour game night per month, and sometimes it takes a month and a half.

Adding loads of additional story would, by the very nature of the beast, add loads of additional time. The short session lengths really is part of the genius of this game's design. As numerous people have pointed out, the extra story is out there and available, if people want it. I really don't, particularly, so the fact that the story is sparse - the fact that I don't have to pay for that additional story material as part of the value of the card game - is a real benefit.

[Flat the Impaler]

kysmartman wrote:

Edit: The only game that I can think of that gives you the info Nathaniel wants is the comic book style card game that I can't think of the name. But that is a game created out of its own world (though the heroes are clearly knockoffs of actual comic book heroes) so they had to have all of the backstory in the manual.

Sentinels of the Multiverse?

[TClifford]

Nathaniel Gousset wrote:

TClifford wrote:

It's nice to be passionate about something, but does your passion always have to be negative?

Sorry TC but, for me, pointing out default and things that could be made better for next time isn't negative. Being negative would be to acknowledge default and accept them, even endorse them. Burning energy and suggesting changes isn't negative.

Your systematic comments about me, personnaly, that is an entirely different thing.

Nate, you really need to look up the term, Constructive Criticism. All I ever see you do is criticize. I rarely see you be constructive.

[Flat the Impaler]

Another argument I'll add for not adding more story, is that some (myself included) might actually want a disconnect between the ACG and the RPG story.

I've not played the RPG (and I know I'm not the only one), but I'm not going to rule it out. As such, I don't want this game dropping spoilers left and right. Crumbs are OK... just enough to keep me intrigued, but anything more would ruin the fun of the RPG.

[kysmartman]

Flat the Impaler wrote:

kysmartman wrote:

Edit: The only game that I can think of that gives you the info Nathaniel wants is the comic book style card game that I can't think of the name. But that is a game created out of its own world (though the heroes are clearly knockoffs of actual comic book heroes) so they had to have all of the backstory in the manual.

Sentinels of the Multiverse?

Yeah, took me 2 hours after posting this to remember the title. Also known as that horribly fiddly card game without a board. Thanks for the assist.

[Vic Wertz]

Flat the Impaler wrote:

Another argument I'll add for not adding more story, is that some (myself included) might actually want a disconnect between the ACG and the RPG story.

I've not played the RPG (and I know I'm not the only one), but I'm not going to rule it out. As such, I don't want this game dropping spoilers left and right. Crumbs are OK... just enough to keep me intrigued, but anything more would ruin the fun of the RPG.

We definitely had folks like you in mind when we discussed how much to cover story elements in the game. We hope that many other players share your approach!

[Sophismata]

Hmm... If I may play the Devil's Advocate for a second here, Nathaniel does have a point. Very few PACG cards have any flavour text. Most TCG's and LCG's include small phrases, sayings or descriptions of the characters, events and locations the game is built on. Boardgames like Descent, and Sentinels of the Multiverse have also adopted that design.

It would not go amiss to have that in PACG, as well - and would help with the theming for those, like myself, who have not played the actual RPG adventure path.

I don't think anything more than that was being asked.

[Spycom82]

I must admit I quite enjoy the small teasers on some villains about their character. And indeed it feels disappointing when it's not there on a villain. The reason of course is the mechanics that must all be clear and written within the boundaries of the frame. And when I have to choose, I will always choose more interesting mechanics than a more interesting story.

What I like most is the freedom in story presented by the location cards. As it is a spin off from a roleplaying game, it is wonderful how you can create your own mini-story each session. I must admit though that I sometimes do cheat from the made up storyline due to game mechanics. Playing often with Valeros and Seoni, I do deeply and fervently dispise every single wisdom check :-) So those are always the last locations to visit.

But as a conclusion: The extra flavor is sometimes fun and appreciated as long as it does not come with a decrease in interesting game mechanics.

[Charles Scholz]

Wow. Talk about thread-jack. I ask a simple question about one particular card and it really blew up.

Thanks for answering my original question before all the rest happened. I haven't read ROTRL since I first ran it 5 years ago, though I did buy the aniversary edition and looked through it, and I did not remember that Grayst was only infected at the time.