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Ok, so I've read a number of the the threads here regarding this topic and in a number there's the mention that as per the rules in the CRB, the arcane pool bonus doesn't stack with the MW weapons attack bonus. Last night I searched through quite a bit of the CRB, but couldn't find a rule that would prevent this. I mostly read through the the Equipment, Combat and Magic chapters, but couldn't find a rule that would disallow this. I did find something in the Magic Weapon spell, but that's a specific spell and the Arcane pool descriptive text doesn't make any reference to it.
If there's a rule, could someone be so kind as to list its pages in the CRB or quote it? Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help me with this.
The bonus to attack from a masterwork weapon is an enhancement bonus. The bonus to attack from a magic weapon is an enhancement bonus. Same-typed bonuses do not stack unless something says they do.
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At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus,to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
I see what the OP is saying, but I believe the RAI is that you must make the weapon magical, first, and not that the magical enhancement bonus stacks with the non-magical enhancement bonus.
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The bonus to attack from a masterwork weapon is an enhancement bonus. The bonus to attack from a magic weapon is an enhancement bonus. Same-typed bonuses do not stack unless something says they do.
What the Arcane pool text states is this:
"At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves."I've seen a number of threads where posters mentioned that other rules in the CRB disallow the arcane pools enchantment bonus to stack with the MW attack bonus. So all I was asking for was the page numbers in the CRB or a quote of the rule.
arcane pool bonus doesn't stack with the MW weapons attack bonus.Not exactly sure what you are asking, but if Arcane Pool gives an Enchantment bonus then that wouldn't stack with the MW bonus.
I'm not asking anything. As per above in my response, I was instead requesting the page number(s) or quoted rule of exactly what you stated. I read through the rules and couldn't find it.
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At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus,to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.I see what the OP is saying, but I believe the RAI is that you must make the weapon magical, first, and not that the magical enhancement bonus stacks with the non-magical enhancement bonus.
Ah, you beat me to the quote. I'm not saying this isn't the case, but I'd like to know where the rule is - that's all. Hey the CRB is 575 pages long and I've only be playing since April, so my CRB-foo isn't exactly there yet. ;)
The mistake your making is assuming there is a core rulebook rule allowing 2 enhancement bonuses to stack. By default this is not the case.
If you add +1 magic to a mw weapon it does not become a +2 to hit +1 damage weapon nothing in the core rulebook supports this.
If a magus adds a magic +1 to hit and damage to a mw weapon it... becomes a +1 weapon. It doesn't become a +2 to hit +1 damage weapon.
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The mistake your making is assuming there is a core rulebook rule allowing 2 enhancement bonuses to stack. By default this is not the case.
If you add +1 magic to a mw weapon it does not become a +2 to hit +1 damage weapon nothing in the core rulebook supports this.
If a magus adds a magic +1 to hit and damage to a mw weapon it... becomes a +1 weapon. It doesn't become a +2 to hit +1 damage weapon.
Huh? Well that just made my head spin. You're saying that this text in the description of the Magus Arcane Pool
"These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5"
Is NULL in void because there's nothing in the CRB that says it's possible? Which brings me back to my question; where in the CRB does it state that adding a +1 enhancement to a MW weapon erases the existing +1 attack bonus? As I stated in my initial post, I only found such a rule in the Magic Weapon spell text.
[Edit] And I'll state what I've already stated - I'm not assuming anything, I'm just looking for the actual rule in the CRB.
Masterwork is a weapon enhancement. It's non-magical but it's still an enhancement bonus.
While the general rule is that enhancement bonuses don't stack, specific trumps general, and in this case, the arcane pool ability to add enhancement bonuses to a weapon states that it stacks with existing enhancements.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
[edit]
Changing my response. I think there's a bit of a contradiction here. The text on masterwork weapons states that the bonus from MW is subsumed by a magical enhancement. Arcane pool doesn't seem to recognize that particular restriction, and therefore seems to imply that it would stack.|
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OK, I'm following you Xaratherus. Well that's a bit of a surprise, because many who have posted about this seem to be adamant that there's a very specific rule that disallows the stacking. As well, I just got my Ultimate Magic book and it has a printing date January 2012 -almost 2 years ago- and it's the 2nd printing! So if it isn't RAI, I'm surprised Paizo hasn't corrected this in a FAQ. Meanwhile, I see other things about the Magus in the UM FAQ?
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[edit]
Changing my response. I think there's a bit of a contradiction here. The text on masterwork weapons states that the bonus from MW is subsumed by a magical enhancement. Arcane pool doesn't seem to recognize that particular restriction, and therefore seems to imply that it would stack.
You posted before I finished my reply. I did see what you referred to above in the Masterwork Weapons section in the Equipment chapter. However I thought that was in reference to the Magic Item creation rules that state that a weapon must 1st be of masterwork quality before a magic enhancement can be applied. Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with the Magic Items chapter and was under the impression the loss of the MW attack bonus was part of the crafting/enhnancement process. Since the Arcane Pool descriptive text doesn't mention that the Magus' weapon must be of masterwork quality, I didn't see that as a direct confirmation that the stacking is disallowed. Maybe that's the RAI section hat everyone is referring to?
I was also under the impression that more specific text trumps the more general, but it's sounding like that isn't always the case.
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You won't find anything in the Core Rulebook regarding the Magus or its Arcane Pool, so asking for a page number will not help you.
Bonuses with the same name, such as "enhancement", generally do not stack. There are a few exceptions. The Magus' Arcane Pool is designed so that its Enhancement bonus stacks with the weapon's Enhancement bonus. As is written, this would stack with a MW weapon's Enhancement bonus, but most people will understand the RAI to mean that it does not.
If I was your judge at a PFS table, I would not allow it to stack.
You won't find anything in the Core Rulebook regarding the Magus or its Arcane Pool, so asking for a page number will not help you.
Bonuses with the same name, such as "enhancement", generally do not stack. There are a few exceptions. The Magus' Arcane Pool is designed so that its Enhancement bonus stacks with the weapon's Enhancement bonus. As is written, this would stack with a MW weapon's Enhancement bonus, but most people will understand the RAI to mean that it does not.
If I was your judge at a PFS table, I would not allow it to stack.
This is exactly what I was attempting to say in my hasty edit. RAW, it appears that it might work (there's no way to tell which is more 'specific' - the text about magical enhancement bonuses not stacking with masterwork bonuses, or the text from the arcane pool ability); RAI, it's not intended to work that way.
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You won't find anything in the Core Rulebook regarding the Magus or its Arcane Pool, so asking for a page number will not help you.
Actually, I could easily provide a page number and quote - CRB, Equipment Chapter, Pg 149:
"All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic."If that's the rule that makes the RAI overturn the specific text in the Magus Arcane Pool description, I can see that. As I mentioned above, this being in the Equipment chapter and not in the Combat or Magic chapters, lead me to believe it might be something specific to the Magic Item crafting/enhancement process as opposed to a global rule. Anyhow, I'm going forward with the idea that the Arcane Pool attack bonus replaces the MW weapon's attack bonus.
Bonuses with the same name, such as "enhancement", generally do not stack. There are a few exceptions...
Ahah, well now that brings up another question. ;) Is the damage bonus from the Arcane Strike feat one of those exceptions - i.e. does it stack with the damage bonus from the Arcane Pool? It is after all an enhancement bonus as described in its top text:
"You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy."
"You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy."
This is actually the flavor text of the feat, not the rules text of it. The rules part doesn't specify a type on it, so it is a typeless bonus.
Think of it more like having a high strength enhances your ability to do damage with a melee weapon. That doesn't make your bonus damage from strength an enhancement bonus though.
Whenever a bonus (or penalty) is listed in the rules it is always in the form of a +X <type> bonus. E.g, +1 luck bonus, or +4 enhancement bonus, or +2 profane bonus, etc.
It looks like others ha e said what I was trying to say better. Basically the op asked for a core rulebook rule that allows the arcane pool thing to syack with the mw bonus. I was basically trying to say there isn't one.
The specifics of the magud arcane pool power let it stack with existing bonuses. Which as someone above said in theory let it stack with the mw bonus. But chances are most dm won't see it this way.
Edit appologies for spellint on my phone and I have fat fingers.
Seems like it would indeed stack. It's a bit unwieldy, but not terribly so.
I think it is obvious that RAI it doesn't stack with MW bonus.
I would take "stack" in this sense to mean, "contributes to progression along the normal magic enhancement track." So, a mwk weapon Arcane Pooled into a +1 weapon nets a gain of +1 damage. The alternative is letting a 17th level magus enhance a masterwork weapon into something better than its +5 equivalent.
I would take "stack" in this sense to mean, "contributes to progression along the normal magic enhancement track." So, a mwk weapon Arcane Pooled into a +1 weapon nets a gain of +1 damage. The alternative is letting a 17th level magus enhance a masterwork weapon into something better than its +5 equivalent.
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Arcane Pool doesn't have to "recognise" it. it's the core rules. Arcane Pool doesn't have a rule saying that it's mechanics circumvent the rules on stacking and overlapping bonuses.Masterwork is a weapon enhancement. It's non-magical but it's still an enhancement bonus.
While the general rule is that enhancement bonuses don't stack, specific trumps general, and in this case, the arcane pool ability to add enhancement bonuses to a weapon states that it stacks with existing enhancements.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.[edit]
Changing my response. I think there's a bit of a contradiction here. The text on masterwork weapons states that the bonus from MW is subsumed by a magical enhancement. Arcane pool doesn't seem to recognize that particular restriction, and therefore seems to imply that it would stack.
...yeah, yeah it does have exactly a rule that circumvents the general rule on stacking bonuses. You even quoted it. I'll bold it for you.
The general rule states that enhancement bonuses don't stack. If arcane pool did not override that general rule by stating that the enhancement bonuses it grants stack with existing bonuses, then in order to improve a +1 weapon to a +2 weapon using arcane pool, you'd have to spend 2 arcane points.
You don't have to do that, though, because the specific rule for the arcane pool ability overrides the general one about bonuses not stacking.
The confusion comes in because with arcane pool, you can have a masterwork weapon (with a +1 enhancement from being masterwork) and grant it a temporary +1 from arcane pool that, according to the bolded text, technically would stack with the enhancement bonus from MW, because they didn't clarify that it only stacks with inherent magical enhancement bonuses.
No, the text states clearly that 1) arcane pool grants the weapon a distinct enhancement bonus and 2) that this bonus stacks with the weapon's existing enhancement bonus. It even uses the words "stacking with existing weapon enhancement".
Nobody's twisting anything.
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Come 13th level this Magus would be in an interesting position. He/She could add a +4 Enhancement to a MW weapon, making its total Enhancement to-hit +5, but it would still only be a +4 magic weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction, and it could never overcome alignment-based DR.
Despite all this theorycrafting, it really is in the Magus' best interest to purchase a magical weapon and enhance it further over time. You can eventually achieve a weapon with a total equivalent of +10, when you've only really paid for a +5.
That's incredible on its own.
It would have been much better if the Arcane pool text had read something like "stacking with existing magical weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5".
Then it would have been clear that it did not stack with the masterwork enhancement.
As there is no distinction made in the Arcane Pool ability description, you could be forgiven for thinking it stacks with any enhancement bonus.
You can eventually achieve a weapon with a total equivalent of +10, when you've only really paid for a +5.
Stacks to a max of +5. But it doesn't say if that's an actual +5, or weapon equivalent of +5.
Incorrect. Arcane Pool is not creating a separate enhancemnt bonus, it is adding to whatever is the pre-existing magical bonus. If there is no magical bonus, it creates a magical enhancement bonus to the weapon. There remains only two enhancement bonuses on the weapon, the magical one from arcane pool and the +1 from masterwork. They don't stack no matter how much you twist it. It acts exactly the same way as all other simmilar mechanics such as the Arcane Duellist's bladethirst performance, or a Paladin's Divine Weapon bond.
LazarX, it says flat-out, in plain English, that it stacks with existing enhancement bonuses. I'm doing absolutely 0 twisting here. I'll quote it again:
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5
See the big word there, "stacking"? If you choose to ignore that word and what it means, then that's your prerogative. Frankly I agree with you that it is not meant to stack with a masterwork bonus - but not because I pretend the word isn't there, and even though I recognize what the likely intended interpretation is, that doesn't mean I fail to recognize that there's also some lack of clarity in how the rules combine here.
Arcane Pool adds a secondary enhancement bonus to a weapon that stacks with existing enhancement bonuses, with the likely intention that it stacks with existing magical enhancement bonuses (and subsumes the masterwork bonus). But the language explicitly implies that it's stacking a secondary bonus.
I would take "stack" in this sense to mean, "contributes to progression along the normal magic enhancement track." So, a mwk weapon Arcane Pooled into a +1 weapon nets a gain of +1 damage. The alternative is letting a 17th level magus enhance a masterwork weapon into something better than its +5 equivalent.+1
+2
Does anyone seriously consider think that SKR or one of the other developers would come on here and agree with the idea of stacking on top of the masterwork bonus as opposed to above?
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Does anyone seriously consider think that SKR or one of the other developers would come on here and agree with the idea of stacking on top of the masterwork bonus as opposed to above?
Why wouldn't they? The RAW is pretty straightforward, and I don't really see how it breaks anything. I'm not saying they will agree with it, but I don't know why you would take it as a given that they wouldn't.
While I will admit it is probably not RAI, I cannot deny that it quite clearly and in no uncertain terms says that it stacks with the existing enhancement bonus, and that the masterwork bonus is an enhancement bonus, resulting in an inexplicable +2 to hit, and +1 to damage enhancement bonus.
I don't think that is how it is intended to be used, I don't think anybody thought of it while they were making the ability, but if we want a straightforward RAW answer? I have to say yeah it stacks with the masterwork bonus.
I would take "stack" in this sense to mean, "contributes to progression along the normal magic enhancement track." So, a mwk weapon Arcane Pooled into a +1 weapon nets a gain of +1 damage. The alternative is letting a 17th level magus enhance a masterwork weapon into something better than its +5 equivalent.+1
+2
Does anyone seriously consider think that SKR or one of the other developers would come on here and agree with the idea of stacking on top of the masterwork bonus as opposed to above?
No, I don't. I haven't seen anyone claim that was the intention, either. But I also don't believe that the text and the intention are clearly equivalent in this case.
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It looks like others ha e said what I was trying to say better. Basically the op asked for a core rulebook rule that allows the arcane pool thing to syack with the mw bonus. I was basically trying to say there isn't one.
Actually I said nothing of the sort. This is actually what I said:
Ok, so I've read a number of the the threads here regarding this topic and in a number there's the mention that as per the rules in the CRB, the arcane pool bonus doesn't stack with the MW weapons attack bonus.
And I even restated it later here:
Which brings me back to my question; where in the CRB does it state that adding a +1 enhancement to a MW weapon erases the existing +1 attack bonus? As I stated in my initial post, I only found such a rule in the Magic Weapon spell text.
You assumed incorrectly that I was looking for a CRB rule that allows the arcane bonus to stack with the MW bonus, and you did that after accusing me of making an illogical assumption. Suggestion - try actually reading what someone is asking for before replying.
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Kronovan, you might want to reread your own OP:
Ok, so I've read a number of the the threads here regarding this topic and in a number there's the mention that as per the rules in the CRB, the arcane pool bonus doesn't stack with the MW weapons attack bonus.
That's what we've been responding to.
Or, at least, that's what I was responding to when I said earlier that you will find no such rule in the CRB.
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Kronovan, you might want to reread your own OP:
Ok, so I've read a number of the the threads here regarding this topic and in a number there's the mention that as per the rules in the CRB, the arcane pool bonus doesn't stack with the MW weapons attack bonus.That's what we've been responding to.
Or, at least, that's what I was responding to when I said earlier that you will find no such rule in the CRB.
No disagreements there Nefreet - you did respond to my actual question. To be honest though, it was only Xaratherus that really pointed to a section in the CRB when he made this statement.
...I think there's a bit of a contradiction here. The text on masterwork weapons states that the bonus from MW is subsumed by a magical enhancement...
Which is what I was mostly asking for. The rule is in the CRB on page 149 and I even quoted it in 1 of my posts. I appreciate all the discussion, so many thanks to you and everyone else that replied. This has allowed me to see that there's a contradiction in the RAI in the CRB and RAW in UM regarding the stacking. I'm using my Magus in PFS play, so I'll point this out to our Venture Captain for a ruling.
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The mistake your making is assuming there is a core rulebook rule allowing 2 enhancement bonuses to stack. By default this is not the case.
If you add +1 magic to a mw weapon it does not become a +2 to hit +1 damage weapon nothing in the core rulebook supports this.
If a magus adds a magic +1 to hit and damage to a mw weapon it... becomes a +1 weapon. It doesn't become a +2 to hit +1 damage weapon.
Huh? Well that just made my head spin. You're saying that this text in the description of the Magus Arcane Pool
"These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5"
Is NULL in void because there's nothing in the CRB that says it's possible? Which brings me back to my question; where in the CRB does it state that adding a +1 enhancement to a MW weapon erases the existing +1 attack bonus? As I stated in my initial post, I only found such a rule in the Magic Weapon spell text.
[Edit] And I'll state what I've already stated - I'm not assuming anything, I'm just looking for the actual rule in the CRB.
You are assuming something: you are assuming that the Core rulebook, produced in 2009 will have a specific rule pertaining a class printed in the 2012 Ultimate Magic rulebook.
Instead you must follow the steps of the rules keeping in your mind the order in which the book were produced.Core rulebook, 2009 - a weapon masterwork enhancement bonus and a weapon magical enhancement bonus don't stack but overlap.
Ultimate Magic, 2012 - a magus using a arcane pool point can give a (magical) enhancement bonus to a weapon, and that bonus can be added to existing enhancements.
While the ability don't say it loud (and it is not really necessary to explain that), adding a magical enhancement still follow all the other rules about adding magical enhancements, included overlapping and not stacking with masterwork enhancement.
The magus arcane pool allow you to temporarily enchant a weapon, but you still follow all the rules about enchanting weapons.
The use of enhancement both for magical enhancements and masterwork enhancements can sometime create problems, but it is very easy to spot the difference, as enhancement without a specification is used for magical enhancements, while when the rules speak of masterwork enhancement they say masterwork enhancements.
The magus ability allow you to stack enhancements, not masterwork enhancements.
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While the ability don't say it loud (and it is not really necessary to explain that), adding a magical enhancement still follow all the other rules about adding magical enhancements, included overlapping and not stacking with masterwork enhancement.
The magus arcane pool allow you to temporarily enchant a weapon, but you still follow all the rules about enchanting weapons.The use of enhancement both for magical enhancements and masterwork enhancements can sometime create problems, but it is very easy to spot the difference, as enhancement without a specification is used for magical enhancements, while when the rules speak of masterwork enhancement they say masterwork enhancements.
The magus ability allow you to stack enhancements, not masterwork enhancements.
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I don't think you're allowed to make up new rules in a discussion about RAW.
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The magus ability allow you to stack enhancements, not masterwork enhancements.
Oh, it does, eh?
Point my gaze toward the word "magic" or "masterwork" in the Arcane Pool class feature. Neither of these words are used in the relevant sentence.
These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
Nowhere does it say "existing magical enhancement" or "does not stack with nonmagical enhancement."
All it says is "stacks with enhancement."
So it stacks with all enhancement bonuses.
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You are assuming something: you are assuming that the Core rulebook, produced in 2009 will have a specific rule pertaining a class printed in the 2012 Ultimate Magic rulebook.
Instead you must follow the steps of the rules keeping in your mind the order in which the book were produced.Core rulebook, 2009 - a weapon masterwork enhancement bonus and a weapon magical enhancement bonus don't stack but overlap.
Ultimate Magic, 2012 - a magus using a arcane pool point can give a (magical) enhancement bonus to a weapon, and that bonus can be added to existing enhancements...
I think you missed the part of my OP where I stated I've read a number of threads where a rule in the CRB is referred to regarding this. Here was my actual commment:
Ok, so I've read a number of the the threads here regarding this topic and in a number there's the mention that as per the rules in the CRB, the arcane pool bonus doesn't stack with the MW weapons attack bonus.
That meant I truly did some searching and found a series of threads - I wasn't pulling this out of thin air. Of course based on that I made the assumption that there was a rule in the CRB that would supersede the Magus rule in the UM - why would so many previous posters claim there was if there wasn't. What I clearly WAS NOT assuming was that there was a CRB rule that stated the stacking was allowed.
I second Diego from above and no Shisumo, he is not making up rules.
At least three spots in the core book it states in some fashion that the masterwork enhancement bonus doesn't stack with magic enhancement bonus for weapons. (I'm doing this from a phone on my break or I would provide links)
Once in the equipment chap - masterwork weapons section, once in the Magic Items chapter - weapon section where enchancement bonuses are discussed and lastly the Magic Weapon spell. To the best of my knowledge anywhere in the corebook masterwork weapons and enhancement bonuses are talked about together this stacking is not allowed.
The Magus's Arcane Pool ability doesn't need to restate a specific rule already established in the CRB, it needs to specifically override it if the MW enchancement could stack with the magic enhancement bonus.
Well now you know there's no invisible rule somehow banning this combo in a book published before the ability was written. Problem solved. They stack.
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