because to do so while I'm at work requires me to bypass the firewall.
I'm starting to feel like the overall system isn't too bad, but there are just some igregious combos in it. I still find the whole fear made flesh dread archetype thing obscene everytime I think of it, fear is a very potent effect and they pull it off effortlessly and ignore immunities to it.
-edit- it seems to me that wilders can nuke all day as baseline without spending powers for the most part at some small risk to self.
For now I am only commenting on the core rules for psionics. I have not looked at that archetype yet. Once we clear up the base rules we can look at that and address those concerns.
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In this situation we have a spell that deals alot of damage and has a rider that if it reduces them to zero hp, they are gone without any chance of revival except for a small handful of spells. A psionic character of lvl 20 can spend 9 points to make it a) increase the dc by 2 and if they succeed the fort save they will take 23d6 dmg.... that seems totally on par with a wizard...
Incorrect.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the damage this power deals to a subject that fails its saving throw increases by 2d6 points. Augmenting this power does not change the amount of damage the target takes if it succeeds on its saving throw.
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Lantzkev, we're only four rounds into the combat. No one on our side has died yet (and you used Breath of Life on the dead animal companion) and we've made his accomplice flee and we've got him on the ropes. It hasn't been that curb-stomp of an encounter.
Additionally, your attempt at using the enemy in our combat as an example of how Psionics may or may not be broken is significantly flawed because
-The enemy is 'possessed by a fragment of a god-killer', which means... we really have no idea what that means, other than the psion has immunity to mind-effecting. We have no idea what kind of GM handwave oogie-boogie has thrown into the character and how it might have made fighting against him unrepresentative of fighting against a normal Psion.
-This enemy was presumably designed for a solo encounter against us, a full party of level 15 characters, as that is what has occurred. Consequently the GM is fully entitled to optimize and boost the enemy's power level, possibly arbitrarily, to ensure he does not crumble like tinfoil. I have no problem with this, but it needs to be noted.
As well- you've raised some issues about how balanced my class (dread) is, and how balanced my archetype (fear in flesh) is. I wouldn't mind sorting them out here as well, I haven't played a Dread before and am happy for some feedback, so-
-I think that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear is just as legitimate as an Antipaladin's ability to do likewise or even a Paladin's ability to be Immune to Fear. Seems to me that 'blanket immunity to fear, WTF?!?' is just as valid as 'ability to bypass blanket immunity to fear, WTF?!?
-I am very sure that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear does NOT bypass immunity to mind-affecting, thus not making it especially overpowered.
-I quite like the Dread, they're a fun little class, particularly when coupled with the Fear in Flesh archetype. They're a 3/4 BAB gish with some abilities to boost their damage output to close to Fighter levels. Rather than these abilities being (relatively) easy to access (alchemist, magus, druid) they require an external condition: nearby creatures suffering from Fear effects. And then it gives you tools to cause Fear effects. For me, this makes the class much more fun and dynamic, and their abilities actually synergize really well and are very cleverly written. I recognize that some abilities may, if properly deployed, allow me to do evil things to the action economy. But as these abilities require decent pre-buffing, and as all of a Dread's Powers and abilities require the enemy to be not immune to mind-effecting, I think it is well balanced.
EDIT:-As to fear effects being overpowered, let's look at how a Dread can cause fear effects. Firstly, they get a goodly amount of Powers to let them cause fear. They aren't full casters like Psions so their Powers aren't as strong. Secondly, they get some swift-action supernatural abilities (Terrors) to let them cause fear. Terrors have very low durations- 1 round, 1d4 rounds- which significantly reduces how crippling their fear effects are. Additionally, ALL of these fear effects are completely neutralized by immunity to mind-affecting. There is a feat that allows a Dread to bypass immunity to mind-affecting, yes. BUT it requires that the Dread be 10th level, it gives the enemy a +4 bonus on the save, AND it requires the expenditure of Psionic Focus, which will take a full-round action (or a move action with another feat) to get back. This conclusion may be biased as we have encountered only immune-to-mind-affecting abilities in the campaign, but I think it is relatively balanced.
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In this situation we have a spell that deals alot of damage and has a rider that if it reduces them to zero hp, they are gone without any chance of revival except for a small handful of spells. A psionic character of lvl 20 can spend 9 points to make it a) increase the dc by 2 and if they succeed the fort save they will take 23d6 dmg.... that seems totally on par with a wizard...Incorrect.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, the damage this power deals to a subject that fails its saving throw increases by 2d6 points. Augmenting this power does not change the amount of damage the target takes if it succeeds on its saving throw.
A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 22d6 points of damage. Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this power is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.
When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the power disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, but not psionic effects such as a null Psionics field.
A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated. Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per manifestation.
Augment For every additional power point you spend, the damage this power deals to a subject that fails its saving throw increases by 2d6 points. Augmenting this power does not change the amount of damage the target takes if it succeeds on its saving throw. For every 4d6 additional damage, the power’s save DC increases by 1.
What was incorrect about what I said? At lvl 20 if the target fails the fort save they take (11 is cost, so you can augment +9 at lvl 20) for +18... 5d6+18d6 = 23.... unless my math is wrong.
I keep seeing this whole "powers known" is a limiting thing, but that doesn't stop sorc's from being effective and it REALLY doesn't stop a psionic, nearly every power they have is relevant at every level.
Lets take sleep for instance, staple of nearly every low lvl caster...
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
Discipline: Telepathy (Compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level: Dread 1, psion/wilder 1
MANIFESTING
Display: mental
Manifesting Time: 1 round
EFFECT
Range: Medium (100 feet + 10 feet/lvl.)
Area: One or more living creatures in a 10-foot-radius burst
Duration: One minute/lvl.
Saving Throw: Will negates; Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1
DESCRIPTION
You cause a psionic slumber to come upon 4 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the power's point of origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Slumber does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
Augment: For every additional power point you spend, you increase the number of Hit Dice affected by one.
If you instead spend 11 additional power points, you affect every creature within the power's area, regardless of individual or total Hit Dice.
So the difference we can take away? Well they are identical except when you expend power points (lvl 2+) a lvl 2 can affect 5hd, lvl 3 6hd, etc... and when they are lvl 12 they can put to sleep anything that's not immune.
Yeah they only know 7 powers at lvl 12... but all 7 are useful by and large (specifically a blaster focused wilder, or control focused...)
If they aren't a wilder they are a psion, and he knows... oh wow... that's alot of spells errr abilities known. 24 at lvl 12...
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What was incorrect about what I said? At lvl 20 if the target fails the fort save they take (11 is cost, so you can augment +9 at lvl 20) for +18... 5d6+18d6 = 23.... unless my math is wrong.
You said if they succeed on the Fort save they will take that damage. If they beat the save DC they only take 5d6 no matter what the augmentation was.
What was incorrect about what I said? At lvl 20 if the target fails the fort save they take (11 is cost, so you can augment +9 at lvl 20) for +18... 5d6+18d6 = 23.... unless my math is wrong.
if they succeed the fort save they will take 23d6 dmg....
The difference between failing and succeeding. Which is pretty important. Again 23D6 isn't actually that much damage at level 20. It averages out at about 85.
You are incorrect about augmenting the damage you take when you succeed on the save.
Your example is 5d6 (damage taken when save succeeds) + 18d6 (from 9 pp augmentation) = 23d6 on a passed save
But the bolded section posted by TOZ, and referenced by several other posters, states you cannot augment the damage from a passed save.
So augment Disintegrate by 100 pp, you still only take 5d6 damage if you pass the save.
The only way to increase that amount is to Empower Power it, in which case it is 5d6 x 1.5.
People are posting a lot of corrections to your misunderstandings and you just ignore them.
Here's an idea, go read the rules and correct the "I don't know Psionics" issue. Then, if you have questions, let us know. But saying "I don't know the rules but this is broken" and expecting us to provide all the knowledge needed to make and for you to understand an argument on why they aren't is beyond any reasonable discourse. You have to take the initiative to educate yourself first.
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Psionics is Overpowered! (Except When It Isn't.) By Jeremy Smith of Dreamscarred Press
And for fun, 23d6 damage.
Maybe enough to one-shot a d6 HD character with a poor Con. Maybe. CR 19 and 20 creatures have upwards of 300 HP.
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-snip-
-I am very sure that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear does NOT bypass immunity to mind-affecting, thus not making it especially overpowered.
I'm pretty sure when an ability says "ignores immunities to fear" it means it ignores any aspect of immunity to fear unless it specifies otherwise. There's nothing I've read yet that doesn't prohibit you from fearing a bug or golem...
Also, yeah it's a valid comparison of the anti-paladin aura, except that the paladin by himself isn't all that great at causing fear and mainting it. They also don't have abilities that let them intimidate and upgrade the shaken into fear easily.
I didn't come here though to talk about that specific npc, but that I was surprised to see that the psion power didn't follow the convention for that which it was modeled after... which as I had understood psionic powers as a system was meant to do. just be a different "spell point" way of doing things.
Then seeing this "disentegrate" hit me for more damage on a succesful save than a failed save... yeah floored... then I read the spell and realise you can (admitidly it's when you're lvl 20, or as a wilder when you increase your effective lvl that high) you can make that a regular feature.....
The other thing is that most the "metamagic" feats I see all are just effectively +1 lvl rather than +2/3/4 etc... except for quicken, which is +3 rather than it's +4 equivelant...
-snip-
-I am very sure that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear does NOT bypass immunity to mind-affecting, thus not making it especially overpowered.
I'm pretty sure when an ability says "ignores immunities to fear" it means it ignores any aspect of immunity to fear unless it specifies otherwise. There's nothing I've read yet that doesn't prohibit you from fearing a bug or golem...
Also, yeah it's a valid comparison of the anti-paladin aura, except that the paladin by himself isn't all that great at causing fear and mainting it. They also don't have abilities that let them intimidate and upgrade the shaken into fear easily.
Then seeing this "disentegrate" hit me for more damage on a succesful save than a failed save... yeah floored... then I read the spell and realise you can (admitidly it's when you're lvl 20, or as a wilder when you increase your effective lvl that high) you can make that a regular feature.....
With the first- I made a rules question post about it, general consensus was that it did not bypass immunity to mind-affecting.
With the second- Antipaladins can induce Shaken and Frightened with their Cruelties. So yes they do actually have abilities to cause fear, intimidate and ugprade them easily. Particularly as they usually have high Charisma scores and frequently take Dazzling Display, Cornugon Smash, etc.
With the third- the Disintegrate hit you for move damage on a successful save because that's how the dice rolled. If you saved, you got hit for 19d6; if you failed, 22d6. It was just bad luck that, when rolled, 19d6 worked out to more than 22d6.
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Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.
That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
Yes, but that is one of the key and, in my mind, cooler differences between Psionics and Magic. Psions and Wilders are both spontaneous casters, like Sorcerers, they don't get a huge amount of powers known. And, unlike Sorcerers, they do not get a bunch of free spells (bloodline spells). They make up the difference by being able to augment their smaller number of powers in different ways and get more bang for their buck than sorcerers.
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-snip-
-I am very sure that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear does NOT bypass immunity to mind-affecting, thus not making it especially overpowered.
I'm pretty sure when an ability says "ignores immunities to fear" it means it ignores any aspect of immunity to fear unless it specifies otherwise. There's nothing I've read yet that doesn't prohibit you from fearing a bug or golem...
Also, yeah it's a valid comparison of the anti-paladin aura, except that the paladin by himself isn't all that great at causing fear and mainting it. They also don't have abilities that let them intimidate and upgrade the shaken into fear easily.
Then seeing this "disentegrate" hit me for more damage on a succesful save than a failed save... yeah floored... then I read the spell and realise you can (admitidly it's when you're lvl 20, or as a wilder when you increase your effective lvl that high) you can make that a regular feature.....
With the first- I made a rules question post about it, general consensus was that it did not bypass immunity to mind-affecting.
With the second- Antipaladins can induce Shaken and Frightened with their Cruelties. So yes they do actually have abilities to cause fear, intimidate and ugprade them easily. Particularly as they usually have high Charisma scores and frequently take Dazzling Display, Cornugon Smash, etc.
With the third- the Disintegrate hit you for move damage on a successful save because that's how the dice rolled. If you saved, you got hit for 19d6; if you failed, 22d6. It was just bad luck that, when rolled, 19d6 worked out to more than 22d6.
As we've just learned, that's wrong, the spell that he had access to was incorrectly written, as the augmentation doesn't affect a succesful save.
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Yes, but that is one of the key and, in my mind, cooler differences between Psionics and Magic. Psions and Wilders are both spontaneous casters, like Sorcerers, they don't get a huge amount of powers known. And, unlike Sorcerers, they do not get a bunch of free spells (bloodline spells). They make up the difference by being able to augment their smaller number of powers in different ways and get more bang for their buck than sorcerers.That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
Wilders don't get alot known, they are fairly focused... Psions though... they know as many as a wizard will put into his spell book nearly if not a wider variety than a wizard will "ever" put in his spell slots for the day.
Lantzkev, we're only four rounds into the combat. No one on our side has died yet (and you used Breath of Life on the dead animal companion) and we've made his accomplice flee and we've got him on the ropes. It hasn't been that curb-stomp of an encounter.
Additionally, your attempt at using the enemy in our combat as an example of how Psionics may or may not be broken is significantly flawed because
-The enemy is 'possessed by a fragment of a god-killer', which means... we really have no idea what that means, other than the psion has immunity to mind-effecting. We have no idea what kind of GM handwave oogie-boogie has thrown into the character and how it might have made fighting against him unrepresentative of fighting against a normal Psion.
-This enemy was presumably designed for a solo encounter against us, a full party of level 15 characters, as that is what has occurred. Consequently the GM is fully entitled to optimize and boost the enemy's power level, possibly arbitrarily, to ensure he does not crumble like tinfoil. I have no problem with this, but it needs to be noted.
As well- you've raised some issues about how balanced my class (dread) is, and how balanced my archetype (fear in flesh) is. I wouldn't mind sorting them out here as well, I haven't played a Dread before and am happy for some feedback, so-
-I think that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear is just as legitimate as an Antipaladin's ability to do likewise or even a Paladin's ability to be Immune to Fear. Seems to me that 'blanket immunity to fear, WTF?!?' is just as valid as 'ability to bypass blanket immunity to fear, WTF?!?
-I am very sure that a Dread's ability to defeat Immunity to Fear does NOT bypass immunity to mind-affecting, thus not making it especially overpowered.
-I quite like the Dread, they're a fun little class, particularly when coupled with the Fear in Flesh archetype. They're a 3/4 BAB gish with some abilities to boost their damage output to close to Fighter levels. Rather than these...
I am assuming you are a player at his table or am I misunderstanding. I thought the dread was the NPC at first, if you are at his table. I will wait for a reply before I reread the original post. You have made some good points either way.
They absolutely do not know 'as many as a wizard will put in his spellbook'. They also entirely lack the freedom a Wizard has to drop into the nearest scroll-shop and learn a new spell.
The argument over whether Wizards or Psions get more variety in their power/spell lists is one I am quite certain is answered in favour of wizards.
That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
Could you reply to my post where I quoted rules saying that augmenting a power does not allow you to bypass manifester level.
That way we can know if that is off the table or needs more clearing up.
This will also allow us to move on to the next topic, so as to address one issue at time.
@wraithstrike- I know that I am certainly playing my Dread according to that rule. I'm not very aware of how familiar the GM is with the psionics rules so it is POSSIBLE that he is unaware of that rule, but I don't think so.
Elara and lantzkev are both players in a play-by-post campaign that I am entirely unaffiliated with.
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DIFFERENT.
CLASS.The Wilder can go high nova. But he's not a Psion.
The Psion is just about a Sorcerer but with less gamebreaker tricks. But he's not a Wilder.
And if your Wizard isn't absolutely chock-full of spells between the freebies at level up and every damn scroll or spellbook you come across, you have never done something more 'wrong' than you have just played a wizard there.
I think you misunderstand, I'm saying lvl 20 psion knows what 36 spells?
A wizard has 36 spell slots (not including intelligence bonus) to cast from in a day. He doesn't put one of every spell he knows, he puts duplicates in. It doesn't matter how many he knows it's what he prepares.
If he prepares say 36 cold spells, he's hosed when he finds himself on the ice plane of GM laughter....
DIFFERENT.
CLASS.The Wilder can go high nova. But he's not a Psion.
The Psion is just about a Sorcerer but with less gamebreaker tricks. But he's not a Wilder.
And if your Wizard isn't absolutely chock-full of spells between the freebies at level up and every damn scroll or spellbook you come across, you have never done something more 'wrong' than you have just played a wizard there.
Seriously. If your wizard has only fifty or so spells by level 20, either your GM hates you in a terminal fashion that could make for an awesome climactic scene in a movie when you both finally have your final duel, or we've got a literacy issue here.
True. A different class is a different class, and if we are discussing psionics and not psions the we can also use magic as a while which would include the cleric, druid, and witch as valid comparisons. The magus fits in also since it is an alpha striker.
If he prepares say 36 cold spells, he's hosed when he finds himself on the ice plane of GM laughter....
Yeah, that's how prepared casting works. What's new? Sorcerer's must be the new OP then.
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That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
Could you reply to my post where I quoted rules saying that augmenting a power does not allow you to bypass manifester level.
That way we can know if that is off the table or needs more clearing up.
This will also allow us to move on to the next topic, so as to address one issue at time.
what do you want me to reply to? I haven't said you can bypass your effective manifester lvl... no one has stated that.... no one has suggested that, so why would I reply to it?
Wilders don't get alot known, they are fairly focused... Psions though... they know as many as a wizard will put into his spell book nearly if not a wider variety than a wizard will "ever" put in his spell slots for the day.Yes, but that is one of the key and, in my mind, cooler differences between Psionics and Magic. Psions and Wilders are both spontaneous casters, like Sorcerers, they don't get a huge amount of powers known. And, unlike Sorcerers, they do not get a bunch of free spells (bloodline spells). They make up the difference by being able to augment their smaller number of powers in different ways and get more bang for their buck than sorcerers.That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
No class has as much versatility with spells as a wizard does. That is why they are considered the most powerful class, even in 3.5 when the psion was a not a 3rd party class. The only competition was the druid or clerics. The psion and sorcerer(despite having the same spell list) eventually showed up.
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If he prepares say 36 cold spells, he's hosed when he finds himself on the ice plane of GM laughter....Yeah, that's how prepared casting works. What's new? Sorcerer's must be the new OP then.
So you want to say that he's limited by spells known, when he knows just as many as a wizard can possibly prepare in a day.... but he could cast them all once each, or one as many times as he has PP....
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No class has as much versatility with spells as a wizard does. That is why they are considered the most powerful class, even in 3.5 when the psion was a not a 3rd party class. The only competition was the druid or clerics. The psion and sorcerer(despite having the same spell list) eventually showed up.Wilders don't get alot known, they are fairly focused... Psions though... they know as many as a wizard will put into his spell book nearly if not a wider variety than a wizard will "ever" put in his spell slots for the day.Yes, but that is one of the key and, in my mind, cooler differences between Psionics and Magic. Psions and Wilders are both spontaneous casters, like Sorcerers, they don't get a huge amount of powers known. And, unlike Sorcerers, they do not get a bunch of free spells (bloodline spells). They make up the difference by being able to augment their smaller number of powers in different ways and get more bang for their buck than sorcerers.That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
You mean if they prepare in advance for it, or spend a discovery for fast study and have at least a minute to prepare the spell... Then yeah they totally beat the pants off folks in versatility... oh and if they scribed it before hand too.
what do you want me to reply to? I haven't said you can bypass your effective manifester lvl... no one has stated that.... no one has suggested that, so why would I reply to it?That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
Could you reply to my post where I quoted rules saying that augmenting a power does not allow you to bypass manifester level.
That way we can know if that is off the table or needs more clearing up.
This will also allow us to move on to the next topic, so as to address one issue at time.
You said----> "I'm still looking for some verbage in the rules somewhere that establishes that augmenting is part of the manifestation cost. "
The rules I quoted showed that augmenting is part of the manifesting cost.
So once again do we need more clarification or are we in agreement?
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-edit-I'm still looking for some verbage in the rules somewhere that establishes that augmenting is part of the manifestation cost. The way they word it, it sounds like it's a different thing than manifesting, only thing I found that really indicates it's not is rather minor point towards end where it says "total cost when manifesting"
Funny enough it's not at all what you bolded and is the only relevant point to the issue.
You mean if they prepare in advance for it, or spend a discovery for fast study and have at least a minute to prepare the spell... Then yeah they totally beat the pants off folks in versatility... oh and if they scribed it before hand too.No class has as much versatility with spells as a wizard does. That is why they are considered the most powerful class, even in 3.5 when the psion was a not a 3rd party class. The only competition was the druid or clerics. The psion and sorcerer(despite having the same spell list) eventually showed up.Wilders don't get alot known, they are fairly focused... Psions though... they know as many as a wizard will put into his spell book nearly if not a wider variety than a wizard will "ever" put in his spell slots for the day.Yes, but that is one of the key and, in my mind, cooler differences between Psionics and Magic. Psions and Wilders are both spontaneous casters, like Sorcerers, they don't get a huge amount of powers known. And, unlike Sorcerers, they do not get a bunch of free spells (bloodline spells). They make up the difference by being able to augment their smaller number of powers in different ways and get more bang for their buck than sorcerers.That's kind of the point though, limited spells doesn't make it all that limited when it's spell applys at every lvl. It's basically a lvl 1-10 spell when you consider how it works.Didn't think we'd end up posting that twice in one thread...
Iantzev: If you put 11 extra points into psionic sleep, you oughta be [quite unfavorably] comparing it to the LEVEL THREE spell "Deep Slumber"... In fact, I pointed this out earlier. Specifically, that spell among others.
Which leads me to start thinking whatever old version of the PFSRD you have access to has a significant PEBCAK issue.
Actually just their spell list alone can allow them to do it. Many spell are not the perfect solution for a situation but they still work, and with divination and gathering formation they can change out their "every day" spells the spells that affect that situation.
As an example disintegrate was designed as an attack spell, but it works perfectly well to create a shortcut through a dungeon. Summon monster can be used to conjure earth elementals, and have them spy if you by because they can go underground. Summon spells also have monsters that can cast spells so at higher levels you can get access to spells you don't normally have access to, and since scribing is a bonus feat for wizards I see no reason to dismiss it.
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A wizard has 36 spell slotsSeveral of those prior to his day are divinations that tell him exactly what the GM is planning [sorry dude, wizzy's gotta know].
He then prepares 18ish spell slots [of his only 36? we're tossing the psion a bone here?] with exactly the kinds of things he'll want or think he needs, knowing with total accuracy that that white dragon is secretly a red dragon with magic paint, protected by seventeen lightning-immune kobolds that fry as well as they freeze.
He points out the pit trap trigger on the way, saw the rogue fall to his death in the process and decided he liked seeing her walk in front of him enough to do something about that DESPITE the whole dealie with selling that ring she totally never found last week.
Meanwhile the GM is on the floor, huddled in a little ball, weeping and remembering the days when people just wanted to mother****ing BLAST with their magic users, because fireballs were cool. He's hugging that Psion's leg, because the psion made a character that does exactly that. All nice and safe despite the versatility.
Meanwhile his psion counter part wakes up, knowing 36 spells(sorry powers) that'll nearly always work in any situation. He has access to those same divinations the wizard does pretty much.
Feel free to exaggerate a wizards advantage and downplay that a psion has the exact same level of versatility in practicality, and that the only real limiting factor is the actual psion power list.
So you want to say that he's limited by spells known, when he knows just as many as a wizard can possibly prepare in a day.... but he could cast them all once each, or one as many times as he has PP....If he prepares say 36 cold spells, he's hosed when he finds himself on the ice plane of GM laughter....Yeah, that's how prepared casting works. What's new? Sorcerer's must be the new OP then.
No, I haven't said that. What I would say is that the psion is a prepared caster with a list that can be augmented so that the spell can be increased the the rough equivalent of a higher level spell, and higher level powers tend to be more powerful and favorable but have a higher starting cost. Using the highest cost you can though will burn out pretty quickly, so its far from perfect. They are however stuck with those spells and don't have many ways to increase their power point pool en masse or learn new powers, similar to other spontaneous casters.
Prepared is screwed if you pick the wrong spells, but prepared casters have a very large list to choose from. They have a great potential, especially if they know what's coming, but if you pick the wrong thing your screwed.
Spontaneous have a limited list and can pick a very versatile or focused one with varying results, but not having what you have on the day of means you may never have it, even if you come back on the next day. The sorcerer with 36 cold spells on the plane of cold is pretty screwed too, and he can't even swap things out the next dsy. Great to have more options in the moment and avoid the pains of preparedness though.
There are also a lot of differences between each spell list. The way each psionic class functions is very different, one is specialized in fear and control, another picks a discipline and gets powers from that and a large list of others, another is a martial with lots of touch, etc. Just like arcane is split into a guy with touch and augments himself, a guy with a large number of variable powers, a buffer kinda guy with social skills, etc. and divine is split between a smitey kinda guy with limited spell list, a guy who's gifted by nature and manipulates it and its related elements and a guy with a close connection to the gods and planes. Each one is different, though overlap is shared, and psionics is just another option.
That's a lot to say, but its important to remember each spell list and the type of casting you chose does make a large difference, as do the class features that further augment the way you cast and your options.
On a personal level, I actually like that the psion can cast a spell he knew at first all the way to 20 and even finding new ways to use that same ability(though I wouldn't suggest it). It makes more sense to me and its easier than constantly picking new spells at each level and it feels more natural and fluid than the usual sorcerer way of doing it and definitely better than the wizards. Its not really overpowered, that's something else to ask yourself. Its different, but that doesn't mean its overpowered.
So right now we have the disintegrate power(not spell) on the table.
We also have ""I'm still looking for some verbage in the rules somewhere that establishes that augmenting is part of the manifestation cost.", meaning if it is not that you can bypass manifester level.<---OP agrees with us.
We have versatility on the table.
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Taking care of these individually is the best solution instead of just stacking new things on before old things are handled, and if there is a misunderstanding of what was meant then addressing that should also be done.
edited
Feel free to exaggerate a wizards advantage and downplay that a psion has the exact same level of versatility in practicality, and that the only real limiting factor is the actual psion power list.
Far from true. A psion does not have the battlefield control or summoning, buffs, and debuffs all rolled into one character that the wizard does. It was not true in 3.5, and it is not true now. If you can prove that to be false then you are better than most of the better optimizers that are widely known.
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no we've established disintegrate was being misread by the person who used it as augmenting the result on a succesful fort save, ie 5d6 +2d6/pt rather than 22d6 +2d6/pt.... although disitegrate is super strong in this point, and harder to resists when doing it that way....
At lvl 20, you could spend 7 points augmenting, 2pts empowering it, for an end result of dc 19+attribute and if you fail.... 44d6
A wilder can do this at least 22 times a day.
no we've established disintegrate was being misread by the person who used it as augmenting the result on a succesful fort save, ie 5d6 +2d6/pt rather than 22d6 +2d6/pt.... although disitegrate is super strong in this point, and harder to resists when doing it that way....
At lvl 20, you could spend 7 points augmenting, 2pts empowering it, for an end result of dc 19+attribute and if you fail.... 44d6
44d6
A wilder can do this at least 22 times a day.
Didn't the book say augmenting is not taken into account if the save is made, so how is it not still 5d6?
Augmenting this power does not change the amount of damage the target takes if it succeeds on its saving throw.
As for the wilder issue maybe he can do it 22 times per day* but it still means a fort save has to be made, and the touch attack has to be made, and he is not versatile, and still can't compare to a wizard or any other full casting class except for blasting and even then I doubt he can compare. Dropping AoE's that do 300+ a round is a lot more than doing an average of 154 hit points to one creature. Yeah I know some of them will make a reflex save if you use fireball, but scorching ray is also a good spell to focus on, and that has no save.
*(I will have to check this later on)
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Far from true. A psion does not have the battlefield control or summoning, buffs, and debuffs all rolled into one character that the wizard does. It was not true in 3.5, and it is not true now. If you can prove that to be false then you are better than most of the better optimizers that are widely known.
Feel free to exaggerate a wizards advantage and downplay that a psion has the exact same level of versatility in practicality, and that the only real limiting factor is the actual psion power list.
I'd be hard pressed to wade into that list of spells that psions have available and attempt something like that.
I do know they can slumber, they can Energy wall, distegrate, ultrablast, recall death (for those with poor will saves) and Decerebrate for those without good fort saves to instant kill em reliably.
Control? Divert Teleport (large sphere/radius), wall of ectoplasm, Energy wall, Disable, telepathic lash. inflict pain, id insinuation
utility, Trigger power, augured answer, touchsight, mindhunter, Inertial armor (but it scales unlike mage armor) Entagling Debris, ectoplasmic sheen. Energy Adaptation
Healing (hey something a wizard can't do really) cleanse body, body adjustment, body purification...
So yeah, there's some options a wizard has (conjuration) that the psion/wilder can't do... but the psion/wilder can handle any opponent with minimal(sorry no) prep in advance to make sure he has the right ability. Seriously just the option from Decrebrate and Recall Death are enough.
So, we're getting into a competition of who has the best spell/power list? Bring it on.
-Many, many Psion powers have the Mind-Affecting descriptor, limiting their usefulness.
-Many, many essential Psion powers are locked to schools. Thus no psion can know all of these important powers, powers that a wizard will absolutely know, without heavily investing in Expanded Knowledge: Fly, Teleport, Summon Monster, Beast Shape/Monstrous Physique, Scrying, etc...
-Many other spells that Wizards have have their power-equivalent being not granted to Psions. Enlarge/Reduce Person? Not for you, psions!
Far from true. A psion does not have the battlefield control or summoning, buffs, and debuffs all rolled into one character that the wizard does. It was not true in 3.5, and it is not true now. If you can prove that to be false then you are better than most of the better optimizers that are widely known.
Feel free to exaggerate a wizards advantage and downplay that a psion has the exact same level of versatility in practicality, and that the only real limiting factor is the actual psion power list.
I'd be hard pressed to wade into that list of spells that psions have available and attempt something like that.
I do know they can slumber, they can Energy wall, distegrate, ultrablast, recall death (for those with poor will saves) and Decerebrate for those without good fort saves to instant kill em reliably.
Control? Divert Teleport (large sphere/radius), wall of ectoplasm, Energy wall, Disable, telepathic lash. inflict pain, id insinuation
utility, Trigger power, augured answer, touchsight, mindhunter, Inertial armor (but it scales unlike mage armor) Entagling Debris, ectoplasmic sheen. Energy Adaptation
Healing (hey something a wizard can't do really) cleanse body, body adjustment, body purification...
So yeah, there's some options a wizard has (conjuration) that the psion/wilder can't do... but the psion/wilder can handle any opponent with minimal(sorry no) prep in advance to make sure he has the right ability. Seriously just the option from Decrebrate and Recall Death are enough.
Decerebrate is awesome..:) But it is only an SoD, and a higher level one so I don't see the problem unless you don't like SoD's.
Ok with that aside most high level monsters have good fort save and/or will saves just to avoid being one-shotted so while I am sure you can still do it, a wizard can also one-shot you if he focuses on high DC's. So can a cleric.Slumber is what it should have been for magic. That HD limit is garbage, but yeah advantage psion.
IIRC touchsight is similar to blindsight, and while is not a core spell wizards to have a similar spell. In 3.5 they had a similar spell also.
As for inertial armor their AC will still not be that good unless they burn a crazy amount of PP to boost it. Wizards have displacement, mirror image, and invis. Those are better than AC.
IIRC those healing spells are there for people that run a psionics only campaign. With that aside summoning spells, and limited wish can handle most of those.
I agreed with you that energy adaption was really good earlier. I dont remember the other off of memory, but I recognize the names, and I used to know them, but nobody "in the know" ever let those power put anyone on par with a wizard.
As for the wilder/psion comment, it is not just about handling opponents, but situations. The wilder is not handling any situation even if it is good in combat. The psion also has to make sure he has the power chosen, and you are acting like the psion has access to all of his powers at once. Yeah I know a wizard might not have every spell on his class list either, but he has the possibility at least.
In more than one AP I have seen the AP suggest that the wizard's spell book have every spell known, or across several wizards each will have all the spells of a certain school, so while the wizard can potentially get every spell the psion is much more limited. Schrodinger's Psion can't even come close to existing in an actual game, but Schrodinger wizard is not too far off the mark as you get to higher levels.
PS:Just do you know I have played a psion and played against them, and see what decebrate does, and other abilities. No psion has solved as many problems in ways I have not expected as a wizard has, and these were the same players it is not a case of player A being superior to player B.
-Many, many essential Psion powers are locked to schools.
This is key. Many of the best power are specific to what type of psion you want to be. There is not generalist psion, even though I wish there was. By choosing focus X you will always be locked out of power Y.
edit with that aside the wilder is also being added to the psion, just to compare to the wizard.
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Pretty clear by now that the only thing that was wanted from us was affirmation of the initial claim, as opposed to all the info given here.
Incorrect, but since you don't want to participate don't participate.
As for the wilder/psion comment, it is not just about handling opponents, but situations. The wilder is not handling any situation even if it is good in combat. The psion also has to make sure he has the power chosen, and you are acting like the psion has access to all of his powers at once. Yeah I know a wizard might not have every spell on his class list either, but he has the possibility at least.
That's kind of the thing I'm mentioning, the wilder is like a sorcerer, they try and cover all their bases, and the limited spells/powers known doesn't hurt the wilder as much as it could because of how versatile every single power is that they select. There's no need for energy admixture to my knowledge, because you can change the element everytime you manifest (unless I'm wrong)
Near as I can tell the fact that they can handle all the big issues you need a cleric for (drain, healing, curses...) seems pretty big on that end for versatility.
No psion has solved as many problems in ways I have not expected as a wizard has, and these were the same players it is not a case of player A being superior to player B.
looking briefly over the powers as I have this doesn't surprise me, the theme and limit of them are fairly uniform. There's no interesting creation powers really in there, and that's where the "creative" answers come from... Does this mean though that a psion can't solve the same problems a wizard can with psychich powers rather than spells? of course not, they are equally capable of solving any problem a wizard can that doesn't require some nitch summoning... The novelty and surprise of the solution doesn't make them more versatile in and of its self.
That's kind of the thing I'm mentioning, the wilder is like a sorcerer, they try and cover all their bases, and the limited spells/powers known doesn't hurt the wilder as much as it could because of how versatile every single power is that they select. There's no need for energy admixture to my knowledge, because you can change the element everytime you manifest (unless I'm wrong)
Near as I can tell the fact that they can handle all the big issues you need a cleric for (drain, healing, curses...) seems pretty big on that end for versatility.
If they have the power they can do all of these things, but just like the sorcerer they have to choose carefully. The weilder knows 11 powers at level 20. That is not even a comparison.
looking briefly over the powers as I have this doesn't surprise me, the theme and limit of them are fairly uniform. There's no interesting creation powers really in there, and that's where the "creative" answers come from... Does this mean though that a psion can't solve the same problems a wizard can with psychich powers rather than spells? of course not, they are equally capable of solving any problem a wizard can that doesn't require some nitch summoning... The novelty and surprise of the solution doesn't make them more versatile in and of its self.
I am not saying a psion can't do some of the things a wizard or sorcerer can do. The fact that they can is part of the appeal, but they don't solve as many problems as easily in actual gameplay, because not every potential power is availible. Now in this discussion you can just assign them whatever power you want, but at the table if you did not choose power X you don't even have the wizard's option to run away, and come back with the correct spell later on because it is in a spell book. Even worse is that if the wizard is close to city he can buy two copies of a scroll, one for immediate use, and one for his spellbook for the next time this situation comes up. A psion much like the sorcerer, is stuck with whatever he chooses.