I have a situation where obscuring mist was just cast and the ranger (purple on the right) wants to stealth past the Caryatid Column (top center), go across the rubble on the east into that cell, pull a switch and retreat back to his current position where a door opens on his east.
Now beside the reason that the column is blocking the path, can someone stealth past someone in the mist?
In the mist, would he know the room layout enough to do this, they just walked about two minutes ago?
Am I reading too much into the Mist hindering his objective to do all of this in a single turn?
Would the column get am AOO in the mist, assuming he hits through concealment?
Here's the map, the mist is in red.
Map
You cannot make AoO's against a target with concealment. Provided, they have concealment, a character or creature can easily stealth past someone in the mist. Since they are not technically blind, they do not have their speed reduced and do not necessarily need to know their way around (though getting to a switch you didn't know was there could prove difficult).
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you cannot make AoO's against a target with *total* concealment.
the concealment condition does not have a stipulation against AoOs, just 20% miss chance.
but you can stealth in concealment. even adjacent.
conditions that limit visibility , like fog, as stipulated in the vision section in the CRB , limit speed. so the ranger will be going 1/4 speed stealthing unless he'd like to make the DC 10 acrobatics check to move at full speed, which will bump him to 1/2 speed stealth. or take -5 on his stealth to go full speed.
you cannot make AoO's against a target with *total* concealment.
the concealment condition does not have a stipulation against AoOs, just 20% miss chance.
Look up concealment in the Combat Chapter. It specifically states the following:
But isn't there a difference between having concealment and total concealment? So you would still have an AoO against someone with concealment, but not total concealment?
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yes, there is a difference.
concealment is 20%
total concealment is 50% and no AoO.
it says it right in the quote Ravingdork is using.
Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Make the attack normally—if the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance d% roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
So, yes to Stealth, yes to AoO (but only if the column sees the Stealthed provoker).
Sorry. I made the above post in haste (since I'm at work) and quoted the wrong passage.
EDIT: I may have misremembered, as I can't find a relevant quote now.
The answer is:
The ranger can attempt Stealth in the mist because he has Total Concealment until he's adjacent to the Caryatid Column (CC) and regular Concealment when he's adjacent - both grant the use of Stealth.
The CC Perception check is 0 so he's likely to succeed unless he really sucks at Stealth.
If he fails, the CC can take an AoO once for the total movement (it doesn't have Combat Reflexes so it only gets one AoO each turn anyway, even if he provokes extra times - movement only provokes once for the whole move).
Remember that he must move half speed using Stealth or he takes a -5 penalty on the Stealth check. Rubble can count as difficult terrain and count as x2 movement. I see the shortest path as 30 feet (first diagonal is 10' due to rubble, second diagonal is 10' due to rules for diagonal movement (now he's directly north of the CC), third diagonal is 5' again, and finally the last square east into the cell is the final 5'. 30' total. He can do that in one move action with the penalty or a double-move action without the penalty (but then pulling the lever has to wait til next round).
Now, can the Ranger remember all of that?
I assume he saw the room before the Obscuring Mist? He saw the lever in that cell right? That's how he knows it's there? If not, then I'd say the player looked at the map and is metagaming and disallow it. If so (he saw the lever and knows where the CC is) then allow him to make the move - remember, he can see the ground, walls, levers, and enemies once he gets adjacent to them, so he can see well enough, even with regular concealment, to allow him to make this move.
Thanks again DM Blake, that is more or less what I was thinking. I tried to explain all of that to him and he got completely lost. He saw the lever in the room before the column activated and before the mist came out, so yes he knows that it's there.
Thanks everyone, I got what I need! You all rock, I can't imagine trying to run this without this community.
"effectively invisible", yes. And inaudible,too. He can, in fact, stealth (as a verb, although you used "stealthing" as a gerundive noun) right past the Caryatid Column, assuming he makes his opposed Stealth check vs. the Column's Perception check. Fail the check, and he's effectively visible and about to be target practice for the statue.
Perhaps, but that doesn't feel right. I knew about all that and am not likely to confuse the two.
Part of me is still wondering if there is an obscure rule statement somewhere that shows I'm right. Paizo does tend to scatter their rules sometimes.
Or perhaps I'm just wrong and my subconscious ego doesn't want to let it go so easily.
As others have said:
Stealth due to concealment.
Walk past.
If Stealth fails, AoO at 20% concealment (no AoO is only for total concealment).
Note: Movement costs are doubled in fog due to poor visibility (hampered movement rules on CRB p170 and table 7-7 on CRB p172).
- Gauss
Movement costs are doubled in fog due to poor visibility (hampered movement rules on CRB p170 and table 7-7 on CRB p172).
I thought this was only true if you were completely blind or in total darkness, neither of which is fog cloud (you can see in all adjacent squares). Could you please post a link and quote from the PRD for convenience' sake?
Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table 7–7 for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one hampering condition applies, multiply all additional costs that apply. This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling.
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)
You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.
Then on table 7-7 it states poor visibility is x2 movement cost.
There is no clear definition as to what defines poor visibility for tactical movement. However, there are a number of definitions of poor visibility elsewhere.
Poor visibility:2
Overcast or moonless night +6
Moonlight +3
Fog or precipitation +3
Poor Visibility: Anytime characters cannot see at least 60 feet due to reduced visibility conditions, they might become lost. Characters traveling through fog, snow, or a downpour might easily lose the ability to see any landmarks not in their immediate vicinity. Similarly, characters traveling at night might be at risk, too, depending on the quality of their light sources, the amount of moonlight, and whether they have darkvision or low-light vision.
Again, it is not clearly defined for tactical movement but it appears that for other purposes fog counts as poor visibility so I figure it also counts as poor visibility for tactical movement.
Summary:
Some parts of the rulebook define poor visibility to include fog.
Thus: Fog causes poor visibility.
Tactical movement rules state whenever you have poor visibility you have hampered movement.
Thus: Fog causes poor visibility which causes hampered movement.
- Gauss
Not as firm a case as I was expecting, but it does hold some water. I can see GMs ruling both ways on the matter. Thank you for the quotes.
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It does make sense though. If you cannot see farther than 5 feet are you going to move full speed without suffering consequences?
As a houserule, if you have poor visibility (for example, from fog) I allow a DC 10 Acrobatics check to move normally (as per the Blindness rules). It does not make sense a blind creature can move faster than a man in poor visibility.
Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone.
- Gauss
Not as firm a case as I was expecting, but it does hold some water. I can see GMs ruling both ways on the matter. Thank you for the quotes.
Mist does that. :-)
/cevah