Ok simple question. Is a 15th level wizard(counter spell abjurer) way too much for a party of eight 8th level pcs? I have no idea. Opposition schools are evocation and illusion. Any advice?
Eight PCs is a huge party, they'd definitely have action economy on their side. But a level 15 (CR 14) is quite above their pay grade otherwise.
When you put that many opponents against one opponent one side normally gets trounced. My money i son the wizard if it is played well, but it is better to use a larger number of lower level opponents to improve the chance of a good combat.
The fight should be a total of a CR 13 to CR 15 encounter depending on how good the players are.
You could have a CR 11(level 12) wizard
2 CR 8(level 9) archers) rangers or fighters. 1 CR 9 earth elemental. I forgot which one that was.
1 CR 8(level 9)cleric for utility and buffs. 1 CR 6(level 7 bard) for buffs), 1 Bone Devil CR 9 IIRC
You can take illusion and evocation as opposed schools, but there is also a discovery in ultimate magic that removes an opposed school. That way you can use evocation if you want to.
Those opponents I listed are just examples, but you should have at least 5 or 6 opponents since you have 8 players.
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If you pick his spells right and play him smart (being flying and invisible while throwing out black tentacles, solid fog, slow, etc and summoning stuff), a wizard of that level should be able to easily kill even a large party of 8th level PC. I would not go above an EL 12 encounter, maybe 13 if it's something they are suited to deal with.
8 level 8 PCs is roughly equivalent to 4 level 10 PCs. A CR 14 encounter is going to be dangerous.
You could probably make a balanced encounter with a level 15 wizard - mostly a question of giving him suitable spells to cast. There are some combinations that are going to be overpowered. (At a glance, I thought 'Horrid Wilting + Quickened Stinking Cloud' might TPK pretty quickly). Spells that only affect one PC aren't going to do him much good unless he can hide and pick them off one by one.
Giving him some nice defensive / contingency abilities is going to be important if you don't want him dying before he can act.
A boss fight for a level 8 party of 4 should be an CR of 11 or 12
Since you have to parties anywhere from a CR 13 to 15 is fair game.
When you do setup encounters for a party this large split them into to parties for the purpose of choosing the fight.
Choose a combat for one group, and a combat for the other group, and put the two fights together<----another way of looking at it.
8 level 8 PC's is harder the 4 level 10's due to action economy.
ok the advice so far is really split so for reasons lets say there will be at most 3 "monsters" involved in the fight.
To clarify the questions Rerednaw presented.
1. it takes place in a library 100x100 room 30 feet to the roof shelfs 10 feet high and spaced every 15 feet or so.
2. no he is waiting to monologue while they attempt to do anything.
3. 40-50 feet
4.none
5. inside
6. 15 pt buy and standard WBL
7. 60k gp if i remember
8. probably at least half the players if we assume average rolls all around.
9. they are split on optimization 3 are heavy optimizers and the rest are decent.
10. they have no idea he is a wizard or evil (thank you magic). so yes he is dead if they grab him.
Also I am fine with the chance of some death.
I don't know how you built YOUR abjurer, but my Sela Kurn would trounce a 15th-level party pretty easily, provided he got to go first.
Before the raging hellfire was even halfway to its intended target Sandrain had already called for a fell curse to fall upon the wicked soul before him. A ripple of divine power emanated through the air between his holy symbol and his intended target. Just as the fire exploded about the room, so did his power. Sandrain collapsed to his knees screaming in agony, clutching at his eyes as fountains of blood began to poor from their dessicated ruin. The vile fiend had somehow turned his god's might against his own servant, forever blinding him.
Kressel was next. She called forth the powers of the natural world, augmenting the terrible mold that had slowly encroached upon the small library over the years. A choking cloud of lethal spore began to form, but the cloaked figure muttered something she did not comprehend, and just as quickly and quietly as it had formed, so too did it dissipate harmlessly.
Acting in near unison with his comrades, Aros charged, sword in hand. He never made it. The protective ward that Sandrain had placed on him before their breach shattered and turned against him, driving shards of magical energy into his flesh causing him to stagger in pain. He dropped his sword to the floor as his body was continually wracked with waves of horrific spasms. Though he could barely move, Aros could clearly see that the others had been similarly incapacitated by the Vizier's fell power.
The brief spell battle had charred the walls, obliterated an untold number of ancient works, and destroyed the lantern--plunging the area into darkness, but where a few ember motes still burned. Only then, did Sela Kurn turn away from his studies to face them. His glowing blue eyes fought back the shadows, creating an eerie effect on his countenance.
"I believe," he said in a disturbingly cold tone, "that you have all made a grave error."
The Master of Magic's arcane chants and the horrific screams of their fellows was the last thing any of them would ever hear...
Karen's empower intensified maximized fireball and quickened maximized empowered fireball were each turned away by Sela's globe of invulnerability, burning not but the paper and wood about them.
The cleric, Sandrain, recognizing Sela's abjuration, used a heightened blindness spell and bypassed the ward entirely, but was turned back via spell turning instead.
The samsaran druid, Kressel, hoped to use cloudkill against him, targeting his weak save, but Sela Kurn counterspelled it as an immediate action.
By the time Aros was able to charge, it was already Sela's turn to act. He cast a quickened greater dispel magic in an area, bringing it down upon the whole party, dispelling several of their buffs and turning their own magic against them, causing them to become stunned and also lowering their saving throws against his next attack.
Whatever spell or spells he used next to dispatch them, I leave up to your imagination.
Overall, and speaking generally (because I don't know the wizard's nor the party's stats) this sort of encounter is probably one where the PCs might win with great luck and/or great tactics (or great bad luck and/or poor tactics on the part of their foe) but in which it would also be very easy to defeat the party.
At this level a wizard could potentially defeat the entire party with one spell (such as mass charm monster, mass hold person, etc, if he had a high Int or they had low saves) or deal out killing damage with one or two, even as a non-evoker (horrid wilting, caustic eruption, and such). He can also summon creatures capable of killing multiple 8th level PCs in their own right with spells like summon monster VIII, and, as an abjurer, he could with preparation render himself relatively immune to any harm they could offer him with traditional defensive abjuration tactics like mind blank/greater invisibility, repulsion, protection from spells, stoneskin, resist energy...
On the other hand, it depends on several things, such as what spells he uses, whether the party can get the jump on him without a wizard's typical protective spells active, whether he prepared spells for a day of battle, or got attacked in his sanctum on a day he had planned for research and divination... etc (though what kind of 15th level abjurer goes around without protective spells?). As well as, generally, how tough the PCs are for their level and how tough the wizard is for his.
On the other other hand... you could always buff up your PCs before they go in. Maybe a drink at the magic fountain gives them all a +4 morale bonus to saves for the duration of the fight, as the blessing of the gods infuses them with courage to defeat this particular BBEG. Or whatever.
Ok simple question. Is a 15th level wizard(counter spell abjurer) way too much for a party of eight 8th level pcs? I have no idea. Opposition schools are evocation and illusion. Any advice?
With regard to the official guidelines; the Average Party Level is 8, then you add +1 for a large party, making your APL 9 for purposes of encounter design. This means a 15th level wizard an APL+5 encounter if built with NPC wealth and stats (CR 14) or an APL+6 encounter if built with PC wealth and stats (which is +1 CR for CR 15).
The official guidelines only cover encounters up to APL+3. Unofficially, an APL+4 (e.g. a CR 16 vs 4-5 12th level PCs) encounter is roughly an even fight, which is to say that if neither side retreats in an APL+4 encounter, there's a roughly 50% chance of party victory, likely with casualties, and a 50% chance of TPK as a rule of thumb.
(if a party were to fight their evil twins with identical stats and gear, it would be APL+4).
All other things being equal I would say a typical party's chances in a typical APL+6 encounter would be ~10% victory (with casualties), ~90% defeat. However, as above, with a wizard all other things are never equal. It depends greatly on what the wizard is packing.
