I'm trying to figure out the proper damage for the following situation:
1) 10th level Druid using wildshape as a Behemoth hippopotamus, which has Huge size does base bite damage of 4d8 + Strength Mod.
2) The Druid was allowed to take the Improved Natural Attacks (bite) feat since he fights in Wildshape all the time. This says increases 1d8 to 2d6, so that suggests 4d8 becomes 8d6. So now the hipo does 8d6 + Strength Mod.
3) The Druid with Natural Spell feat (so he casts while in natural form) casts Strong Jaw spell (Advance Players Guide p.247) which then increases the damage for size by two, so his Huge size goes to Colossal-size. Page 302 in Bestiary 1 says Huge bite is typically 2d6 and Colossal is 4d6. So, that doubles the dice essentially. So going back to the hipo doing 8d6 now becomes 16d6. The spell lasts 10 minutes at this level.
4) Finally, the Druid also has Vital Strike, which of course doubles the damage dice rolled.
So, is that 32d6 + Strength Modifier? Can you really end up rolling 32D6 as a level 10 Druid?
Improved Natural Attack only moves you up by one step. Going from a 4d8 base moves to 6d8 as its next step. Add Strong Jaw and you get 12d8. Then Vital Strike for 24d8.
Yes. Both Improved Natural Attck and Strong Jaw increase the size of the bite's damage, while Vital Strike adds more dice.
Edit: CalethosVB has the math right. Be glad he hasn't taken a level in Barbarian and Furious Finish to maximize the damage.
Yes. Both Improved Natural Attck and Strong Jaw increase the size of the bite's damage, while Vital Strike adds more dice.
Edit: CalethosVB has the math right. Be glad he hasn't taken a level in Barbarian and Furious Finish to maximize the damage.
Thanks for the clarification. That's only a slight downgrade from my estimate. The average damage for 32D6 is 112 (32 x 3.5) while the average damage for 24d8 (24 x 4.5) is 108.
Still, I'm grateful for your clarity.
Would extra damage from the powerful charge ability be multiplied in the same way? I was looking at the triceratops gore attack. Normally 2d10 but changes to 4d10 with powerful charge. Strong jaw=8d10, vital strike=16d10. Is this correct?
Edit: NVM, I see vital strike can not be used with charge
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If you're going to Vital Strike, I prefer the Stegosaurus to the hippo. True, he only gets up to 12d6 base following that formula (24d6 Vital Strike), but he also gets the free trip attack when that hits, potentially meaning he gets a follow up AoO for another 12d6, giving him 36d6 + 3xSTR and any enhancements by the time the routine is finished. Bonus if any of his allies can get in a few AoOs of their own.
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My Druid does the Stegosaurus thing, but I was under the assumption that Strong Jaw overlapped Improved Natural Attack, so my Vital Strikes are just 16d6.
Both seem like "similar effects", like Lead Blades and Impact.
Hmm, that's actually a good point.
Attacks made by one of this creature's natural attacks leave vicious wounds.
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's natural attack forms (not an unarmed strike). The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, it applies to a different natural attack.
School transmutation; Level druid 4, ranger 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged.
Both have kind of similar language regarding how they do what they do, treating the attacks as though the creature were larger.
Anyone know if there's been any solid ruling on whether Improved Natural Attack stacks with effects like Lead Blades and Strong Jaw (which do not stack with each other)?
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For anyone interested in obtaining an answer regarding whether the Strong Jaw spell or other effects should stack with the Improved Natural Attack feat, I posted a FAQ formatted thread here.
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The difference in the two, is using a spell vs a feat. Strong Jaw "deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is", Imp Nat Attack "as if the creature's size had increased by one category", but neither actually increase the size of the weapon.
Imp Nat Attack: Large Bite = Huge Damage
Strong Jaw: Large Bite = Gargantuan Damage.If you're then Enlarged, however
Large Bite -> Imp Nat Atk -> Huge Dmg -> Enlarged -> Gargantuan Dmg.
Large Bite -> Strong Jaw -> Gargantuan Dmg -> Enlarged -> Colossal Dmg.At least, that's how I read it.
I read it the same way. I believe that is the intent.
Because... 12d8 just isn't enough damage per strike... needs to be 24d8 plz D:We'll know if it is ever given a FAQ response though!