How does this look?
Human witch :
level 1 : feats : extra hex (cackle, fortune), healing hex
level 2 : misfortune hex
level 3 : ability focus (misfortune)
level 4 : flight hex
level 5 : feat : accursed hex
level 6 : slumber hex
level 7 : Feat (???)
Level 8 : tongues hex
Just hit level 5, not sure what to feat to take...
Edit : Is it worth taking mage armor? Ive only been in a dangerous situation once when the party was surrounded by warg/worg riders. Usually staying behind the meatshields works fine. My level one slots are 3x infernal healing, unseen servant and obscuring mist currently.
I think you'll be really bored early on, especially at level 1. I'd probably take Slumber Hex first.
And as totally sweet as Misfortune + Cackle is in theory, in practice, having played a Witch, the 30' cackle range is risky and inconvenient (especially without being able to move) and enemies tend not to last long enough for Cackle to pay-off anyway. Misfortune is nasty, but it's really more of a thing you drop on someone to set up the finisher (usually a save or lose), but you don't get the finisher until 6th.
I had lots of fun with Slumber Hex first and foremost (with traits to buff it, Ability Focus, and Accursed Hex), then Evil Eye and Misfortune later (but I usually felt like the debuffs were wasting time before I dropped the hammer that was Slumber Hex).
Flight is of course, basically mandatory. Healing feels underwhelming, but it's not exactly awful or anything. It is nice to have something to fight undead with, since that's a major weakness (plus vermin, constructs, and swarms, as well).
Edit: About your Edit question, I always had Mage Armor on--if you're trying to use Cackle, I can't imagine not having it. I also avoided Infernal Healing because I think it's cheesey and felt wrong, flavor-wise. I usually just did Mage Armor, a Burning Hands in case of swarms early on and an Obscuring Mist later, and left the other slots open.
Im level 5 already, and yea, i was pretty bored early on. I was going for the buffing concept...
Healing has been great so far, since im the group's only healer. Being able to heal 2d8+5 at 5th level is great, especailly since its once per person.
You don't qualify for Ability Focus, since it's a Monster Feat that requires Special Attacks as a prereq, which you don't have.
Command is also a fun level 1 spell to use.
Improved Initiative is nice, to hammer people with dubuffs asap, get a spell off, etc.
You should definitely take Evil Eye hex. Probably instead of Tongues.
Supernatural abilities count as a special attack.
The problem with command is that you could be using a hex instead, which is much more powerful. It also competes with infernal healing for spell slots.
I didnt take improved initiative because my familiar gives +4 to init, and i have a overall +7 initiative modifier. +11 is probably overkill.
Why evil eye hex? Misfortune (with ability focus/accursed hex) is overkill as it is. I find most enemies die in 2 rounds max, and evil eye just takes up more actions than i would be able to use.
Although you are right that tongues isnt very useful especially since a high int gives bonus languages anyway...
Question wrote: I didnt take improved initiative because my familiar gives +4 to init, and i have a overall +7 initiative modifier. +11 is probably overkill. In all seriousness, no amount of initiative is overkill. Going first as a controller is critically important.
Belryan wrote: You don't qualify for Ability Focus, since it's a Monster Feat that requires Special Attacks as a prereq, which you don't have. You absolutely qualify for it in any normal game. "Monster feats" are not restricted unless your GM restricts you. It's just not a legal feat in PFS since they specifically define the sources you can take feats from.
Where do Hexes fall under the Category of Special Attacks for PCs?
Ability focus risks breaking your witch. Consider a witch at level four with 22 int (17 +2 racial +1 lvl four +2 headband). Slumber hex DC would be 18. With ability focus this makes it a DC 20 will save. You can do this all day long. If you evil eye them first it is effectively a Dc 22 will save.
You risk trivializing encounters and boring everyone to death. Some may argue that the GM will just have to adapt and put more undead into the campaign, but if s/he is running a module or AP things aren't very flexible. Regardless this just means adding even more prep time for the GM.
Unless your game is specifically tailored to broken characters, please avoid doing that.
Don't forget, it's just a game, and the main point is to have fun. Not just for yourself, but to try to make sure everyone has fun.
So, let's say you're all fighting some powerful fighter. The martials in your party have him surrounded and he's taken a beating. Your turn comes up. You could Slumber him, and totally shut down the fight, which would be a very good thing to do if you're all close to death. If not, you could Command him to approach you, which would make him walk towards you on his turn and prove AoOs from everyone surrounding him, making it more of a team effort.
If they all whiff their AoOs, you can all laugh at the situation as the big fighter takes a swing at your head the following round. But that's unlikely since everyone can run up again and wail on him.
So Command might not be the most optimized spell out there, but it can be a fun one to use.
Belryan wrote: Where do Hexes fall under the Category of Special Attacks for PCs?
Ability focus risks breaking your witch. Consider a witch at level four with 22 int (17 +2 racial +1 lvl four +2 headband). Slumber hex DC would be 18. With ability focus this makes it a DC 20 will save. You can do this all day long. If you evil eye them first it is effectively a Dc 22 will save.
Mine was DC: 20 at level 1 because of the Elven racial trait that increases the DC of sleep spells by 1 and a trait that raises the DC of non-violent compulsions by 1.
Belryan wrote: You risk trivializing encounters and boring everyone to death. 1) At level 2 and 3, we were fighting multiple trolls at a time (and this was set up before the GM knew what characters we had so it wasn't in reaction to my witch), so Slumber was often what let us win at all.
2) Magic ruins everything in Pathfinder. Spellcasters are B.S. overpowered in general. It sucks, but it's part of the game.
Well, as I say, if that's the way your game is set up and it's all agreed upon by the GMs and players, then fair enough. You qualify for anything the GM lets you take.
But my warning stands in general, I see so many people obsessing over optimization that it makes me a sad panda.
I find that going first as a witch isnt that important, due to range limitations. The first round is almost always spent moving into range, which can't be done without the melee fighters moving forward as well (to cover you).
If i had more long range save or lose options, or were focused on buffing with spells like enlarge person, then yea initiatve would be critical. But right now it doesnt feel like it is.
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You can always ruin their day with a spell. Walk up and puke a bunch of spiders on them before their turn. Encase them in webs. Glitterdust will definitely wreck their day.
Yea i know. But that still means taking a feat that could have gone to something else, like accursed hex.
So any other suggestions for the level 5 feat other than accursed hex? What about the level 7 feat and level 8 hex?
For spells, this is what im currently going with (we picked up a ring of spell storing, so i've got 5 extra spell levels to play with) :
Spells memorized :
0 - Daze, detect magic, read magic, light
1 - Infernal healing, infernal healing, Infernal Healing, unseen servant, obscuring mist, hynoptism*
2 - miserable pity, glitterdust, web, web, glitterdust*, lesser restoration*
3 - Dispel magic, howling agony
* being the spells in the ring of spell storing
Current spellbook :
1 - Infernal healing, blood money, ill omen, hynoptism, ray of enfleebement, obscuring mist, web bolt, remove fear, comprehend languages, command
2 - Glitter dust, binding earth, detect thoughts, locate object, lesser restoration, miserable pity, web
3 - Dispel magic, howling agony
Binding earth has largely been useless. I thought it would be a great way to stop undead from getting in close, then i realised the close range meant that i would have to get in close before casting it anyway...at which point i may as well drop misfortune on them.
Also i have no idea how to use detect thoughts, given that the vocal/somantic components are a dead give away...
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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Question wrote: How does this look?
Human witch :
level 1 : feats : extra hex (cackle, fortune), healing hex
...
Overall your witch looks pretty solid. I have only a few suggestions.
Hex suggestions
Drop:
Tongues. Bring scrolls of comprehend languages/tongues if you really need them.
Take:
Slumber earlier. It's your primary scaling SR-bypassing gun.
Fortune because you mentioned you wanted to go the buffing route.
If you slap fortune on an ally you cackle to maintain it.
Next round slap fortune on another ally and cackle to maintain BOTH.
Repeat* as needed.
*This assumes that the PCs are not going to go Justice League (team in name only). I'm assuming more X-Men (teamwork).
Scar Hex. Per the description...the 'scar' does not have to be some horrible disfigurement, it can be your sigil (like a tattoo) worn under their shirt. And now you can hex heal/buff your allies and not worry about the 30 foot range limit.
Feat suggestions
Drop:
Ability Focus (misfortune)
Take:
Ability Focus (slumber). Slumber isn't your only gun...but when you want it to work, you WANT IT TO WORK.
Spell suggestions:
Vanish. Only a few rounds but a good spell in any case.
Touch of the Sea. Situational - only if you find yourself on the water a lot.
Alter Self. Swim, scent, and more on demand.
False Life(as controller, healer AND squishy, I'm surprised the GM
hasn't moved you to #1 on monster tasty treat list)
Remove Disease(since you said you were the only healer)
Remove Blindness/Deafness(ditto)
Summon Monster III. Never underestimate the power of action economy. Note be sure to have stat blocks (index cards work great) for your monsters ready. I usually summon lightbulbs for their area debuff (Aura of Menace) and the fact that they have freaking laser beams mounted in their foreheads. Not ill-tempered though.
Mage Armor is useful at low levels, less so at higher ones where every monster needs like a 2 to hit you. Though it can help prevent that second d20 from being a confirm on a critical threat. I do not know how your game environment is, but many times my caster stayed next to the martials...all of whom ran off in different directions leaving my caster alone to tank raging barbarians, trolls, various 2-hander power attacking builds and so on.
My witch(shadow patron) is level 7 (in Society Play). He alternates between buffing and evocation. Yes evocation. :) I stopped using his patron spells because the illusions ran into too much table variation. Plus as an int-primary, he's frequently the party encyclopedia, in lieu of a bard or wizard.
Sorry for the late reply, i had exams and forgot about this thread.
To clarify i'm already level 5...so i can't take slumber any earlier than level 6.
The problem with using fortune is that it's pretty much once per day. So i have to save it for the tough fights. No use re-rolling hits against a bunch of mooks that my party members can kill without taking a single scratch after all.
Scar is a good choice for level 8 i suppose. That would let me heal them without having to rely on touch...
I just had an idea. Can the scar hex allow you to use cackle at a longer distance? Since cackle is a hex, and scar allows you to use hexes at a distance of 1 mile....
Feats :
Why ability focus slumber and not misfortune?
If you can get misfortune to stick, that makes the follow up slumber much easier, rather than having just slumber at a +2 DC. Also, we are going up against a lich in this campaign, so i dont want ability focus on a hex that i cant use on undead...
Spells :
Im not seeing vanish in the witch spell list? Neither is touch of the sea.
Alter self : I see how its useful, but the low duration is kind of a problem. It only lasts for one combat basically. Not much use in exploration.
False life : I have almost never been targetted by enemies, but that's largely due to the other party members acting as a shield. The only time where this was a problem was when we were in a large open space and surrounded by goblin warg riders.
Summon master : I havent done this so far because we do have a summoner already, although he almost never casts spells...is it REALLY worth picking up instead of throwing a debuff though? Lantern archons seems extremly fragile by this level.
Magic items : DM wants to keep the campaign low wealth, so we haven't had much money to spend....we got 4000 gold at level 5 basically. But im looking to pick up a headband of int the next time we get some money...but what should the headband's skill bonus be? Ive got most of the knowledge skills covered as it is, so i was thinking maybe linguistics?
Can anyone suggest a feat for level 7?
Thanks for all the help.
Hexes are special attacks per paizo's own write-ups of witch characters.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Question wrote: Sorry for the late reply, i had exams and forgot about this thread... Most of your hexes are 1/day on a given target...so it kind of boils down to which ones do you want to be those 1/day? You said you like to buff so I suggested Fortune. A re-roll which can be sustained throughout an entire boss fight is pretty spiffy.
You are right about the spells Vanish and Touch of the Sea. That's what I get for posting in two threads at the same time. :)
Yes Scar + Cackle works. Combination also known as the 'stay at home' or 'lazy' buffing/healing witch.
Slumber > Misfortune. Misfortune takes you that first round. Unconscious foe usually > foe at -2 with one thing. Do you want that foe at a -2 or out of the fight? If you *can* take that extra round, you're usually better off with a Ill-Omen + Hex combo. Ill-Omen doesn't have a save (though it can be stopped by other things.) Or summoning a light bulb.
Alter Self: is a MacGuyver spell. It has many many uses...and 1 min/level is pretty darn good. Name any other single spell that can grant darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet? Useful to have in scroll form if you don't want to burn a slot for it. Though...if you need that darkvision and it's dark...scrolls won't work. Last long enough to get through that combat and/or out of combat situation which many spells do not. Again YMMV. If your game is above ground, open ground, always during the day and you never have to worry about invisible/concealed foes...then yeah this is a pretty lackluster spell. The +2 strength bonus is very situational but icing on the cake.
False Life: Not targeted? well then your GM is being nice :)
Summon Monster: Summon any monsters with any number of abilities including an Area of effect debuff...or debuff one creature. Your call.
My critter of choice, lightbulbs *are* squishy...BUT they are squishy with:
Perfect flight (hover and stay out of reach of melee foes)
Immunity to electricity
DR 10/evil.
Aura of Menace
If you're fighting flying creatures with DR/bypassing weapons you've got other things to worry about.
Compare Aura of Menace and Evil Eye.
Evil Eye
Single target
-2 to ac
OR -2 saves
OR -2 attack rolls...versus
Aura of Menace:
All hostile foes within 20 foot radius.
–2 penalty on attack rolls,
AND -2 saves,
AND -2 AC for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon.
That doesn't mean Evil Eye isn't situationally superior. It is after all a standard action versus 1 round for a summon spell.
On your headband. Really depends on your campaign, which I don't know enough about. But general suggestions would be:
All knowledge skills.
Perception.
Sense Motive.
Hope this helps. Again YMMV.
Lantern Archons would be fragile... If they ever got hit.
They fly at 60' (perfect). DR 10/Evil.
The big thing is that they shoot 2 1d6 lasers at 30' as a ranged touch.
Enemies can't really hit them and they constantly sap damage. And if an enemy does attack them, that is a turn they are not attacking a PC.
Put your skill bonus into Fly. It will be needed soon.
Misfortune forces the enemy to re-roll everything though, not just a -2 to something.
Problem with slumber : it doesnt affect undead, and it can be negated by an ally rousing the target. Dropping misfortune at a +2 dc -> slumber on the BBEG also seems better than the reverse. Mooks wont have the will save to reliably save against slumber, with or without ability focus anyway.
Alter self : we just use the light cantrip anyway. Hadnt had many encounters with invisible enemies yet at low level though. I figure i can always pick up see invisibility when it becomes a problem.
Archons seem useful, but wouldnt it die pretty easily to most spells? E.G. A single magic missle or even a fireball. It also doesnt seem to scale very well unless you keep investing in more summon monster X spells.
Ive got most skills covered except for fly...speaking of which, since the flight hex works as per the spell fly, i get the +2 bonus to fly checks right?
Edit : I forgot to mention that i do have miserable pity prepared just in case i am in danger. Should i pick up blood transcription to try and learn spells from dead spellcasters, or hold person to prevent enemies from running out of hex range (this is assuming they are too far away for slumber in the first place).
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Question wrote: Misfortune forces the enemy to re-roll everything though, not just a -2 to something. Dropping misfortune at a +2 dc -> slumber on the BBEG also seems better than the reverse.
Problem with slumber : it doesnt affect undead, and it can be negated by ..suming they are too far away for slumber in the first place).
Correct on Misfortune, I was comparing it to Evil Eye and had a typo.
But slumber takes the opponent out entirely. Even with that extra action from another to wake it up (assuming someone was in range), now you have 2 foes giving up their actions...and if you're going to use Schrödinger's foes then I'll use Schrödinger party.
In games I have played:
Round 1
Witch: *Slumber* Ok the boss is asleep, and no one can wake him.
Barbarian: Coup de grace.
Round 2.
Party: "All dead?" *go through his pockets for loose change*
Result: Dead boss, less resources spent.
Or your version:
Round 1
Witch: *Evil Eye*
BBEG gets full round of actions.
Round 2
Witch: *Misfortune*
BBEG gets full round of actions.
Round 3
...
Result: Boss still up, more resources spent because the party is getting pounded every round.
Of course I usually take both hexes anyway...but if I have choice of which ones to throw...a 'save or you're out' beats 'save or re-roll'.
And have I used Misfortune? Of course...when facing undead, plants, elves, and so forth. Which does happen...but a good chunk of encounters are still against foes that are susceptible to Slumber. And when that BBEG is a caster about to drop the hammer down? That last thing I wanted to do is spend several rounds making him re-roll d20s when he was summoning elementals or hitting us with maximized empowered intensified fireballs.
In some fights...yes I've thrown a Quickened Ill Omen/Misfortune +Cackle, and then Slumber as the follow-up on round 2. My advice was to try to cover general cases and hopefully many bases. Can Slumber be countered? Of course. So can Misfortune. Does that mean Slumber is not worth using? I don't think so and it certainly hasn't worked that way so far in actual play, not just theory. YMMV of course.
Note that in some boss fights I've gone with Quickened Ill Omen and Slumber as a standard to attempt a 1 round takedown. That time I didn't bother with Misfortune because we had a Dual-Cursed Time Oracle forcing re-rolls. So again multiple variables, situations, and options.
So I have found in play that a scaling save or lose is just way too useful. At least in my opinion and experience in play.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Captain K. wrote: Lantern Archons would be fragile... If they ever got hit.
They fly at 60' (perfect). DR 10/Evil.
The big thing is that they shoot 2 1d6 lasers at 30' as a ranged touch.
Enemies can't really hit them and they constantly sap damage. And if an enemy does attack them, that is a turn they are not attacking a PC.
Put your skill bonus into Fly. It will be needed soon.
Exactly. Most GMs think "ooh how squishy" when what you've really done is added 3 flying double-firing laser turreted spellcasters. And if the baddies focus their fire...great...that means your PARTY is freed up to do some pounding and not taking the hits.
And double+1 on Fly skill...you will need it when you get the Fly hex. Hover is a DC20 and Fly gives you a Fly skill bonus of caster lvl/2. So you want to up that skill ASAP. Note you can save your skills until you actually start flying of course. Don't need it for feather fall or levitate.
I played a witch in Kingmaker until I was asked to retire her (she was OP in a very human-centric campaign. The routine I used in boss fights was Evil Eye> Misfortune> Sleep (or some other SoS) with Cackles in there to keep everything running.
For non boss fights I would go straight to the Sleep Hex since it usually stuck - that's why I would try to boost its DC before any others.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Vaellen wrote: I played a witch in Kingmaker until I was asked to retire her (she was OP in a very human-centric campaign. The routine I used in boss fights was Evil Eye> Misfortune> Sleep (or some other SoS) with Cackles in there to keep everything running.
For non boss fights I would go straight to the Sleep Hex since it usually stuck - that's why I would try to boost its DC before any others.
Have not played Kingmaker. Heard good things though. Most of my experience was through Pathfinder Society. Typically in a non-boss fight situation a martial character drops a mook each round. Boss-fights usually were over in 3 rounds or less. I also did things like sustaining Fortune Hex on the party Gunslinger...who loved being able to re-roll :) and avoid those pesky mis-fires.
At level 6 i was planning to be able to do misfortune -> slumber for BBEGs...we are going to be facing a lich in the end game, and i dont want to have my ability focus stuck in slumber at that time. Also isnt it kind of risky to use slumber straight off while the BBEG still has good saves? If he saves, you cant use it again (or you can use it twice with accursed hex).
Quicken ill omen + slumber is a good idea...but fitting in the feat might be hard. Where would you suggest i take it?
If i'm not wrong, summon master 3 only summons one flying lantern archon right? When would you summon it instead of using hexes/spells? This doesnt sound like something you would use every combat.
Would blood transcription/hold person be good spell choices? Single target disables on the witch spell list seem kind of redundant with the nature of hexes, but the long range could be useful sometimes i suppose.
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