One of my players found the 'Bloodhound' spell and uses it very often. With a duration of 1hour per level he has the 'scent' ability the whole adventuring day.
In a dungeon he asks the same question everytime they stand in front of a door, enter a new room, move around a corner or more than 30ft.
'Is there something?'
By RAW this question is totally legal but i have problems to answer this question. To be honest i have a problem with an ability that is some kind of a 360°-automatic-friend-or-foe detection. By RAW there is no roll required, no modifiers etc. and in a dungeon 30ft are enough to detect most enemies.
The RAW defenses for scent are rare and i dont want to change the complete adventure or houserule everything.
At the moment i use scent-based perception checks but the player is not happy with that. I am not happy too but i want to keep the adventure challenging and exciting.
Any suggestions or things i missed in RAW ?
What is the effect of doors on scent? What about other odors that are overwhelming? What is an overwhelming odor? How long last an odor? ..
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I would also add that unless he has appropriate Knowledges, the PC does not know what he is smelling. Does this strong smell of pepper indicates a Werewolf or an Iron Golem ? Time for some skill checks.
Such is obviously not the case for creatures who spent years using their Scent, unless they are confronted with a very unusual smell. Just as the description of a horse is enough for PCs to understand what they are facing without a knowledge check.
You need to focus on the fact that a strong scent in an area messes up the detection ability of scent - if the dungeon stinks bad enough, which they all should considering the rot, mildew, or just not that great of air circulation and numerous smelly creatures having been all around the place for long enough to stink it up.
Player: "Is there something?"
DM: "You smell a strong stink left by many creatures inhabiting this place over a long period of time - it's impossible to sort out whether you are smelling monsters on the other side of that door, or just their left over odor. You can make a DC 20 survival check to try to pick up a scent trail to follow and see where that takes you."Player: "...oh."
This is fair, and will incite ire in you player but remember, if you deny the player scent for overpowering odors, then you deny monsters with scent that ability. The moment you say something like "They smelled you coming," then it's on in the worst way.
If they're not pressed for time or under duress, then why bother with a DC 20 survival or perception that he can just take 20 on?
Have you looked into scent in the universal monster rules? It's not much more helpful, but it explains the otherwise vague ability a bit better.
For the most part, scent is GM discretion. If you think there are strong odors, no one smells anything. If he can take his time and think, he can smell things that aren't mold or his party coming from X direction. Smelling rot can either be dungeon decay or it can be undead, who knows?
I'm not sure what I think of knowledge checks to identify creatures, unless they're common. I can know what a Roc looks like; I can know what it eats; I can know how big it is; I can know its stat array; unless I've met it before and have a keen memory, I have no idea what it smells like. I'd argue that either a high check or none at all would be required to identify.
As far as how long a trail lingers, it'd depend on how frequented the path is and the weather conditions. I don't need a high survival to figure out a deer run, but if it's rainy and the trail was visited a day ago, then it's not sufficiently fresh.
If the players have something that belongs to the thing being tracked (like a blanket, a finger, whatever) then I'd give a bonus since the one with scent can pick out the perfume since he knows what to smell.
Good luck.
Exactly! Dungeons are not clean-rooms, there are lots of smells there, many things have similar smells and there is no reason why someone who hasn't used smells all his life would recognize subtle differences.
Just describe the smells to him and maybe the sources ("your nose detects three subtly different musty smells"). Sure, he'd know that there are three creatures there. They might be 3 gnolls but they might also be a dire lion, a werewolf and a harmless rat. Alternatively, they might be two harmless rats (which he'd see upon entering the room) and a hidden gnoll assassin.
You could throw a lot of false positives at him. The party will probably get incredibly sick of his ability if he makes them stop and prepare for combat in every single room, even though the majority might be empty (can you imagine going through large sewer complex that's mostly filled with harmless vermin?).
A rotting corpse smells exactly the same as a zombie, he wouldn't know the difference.
Several rats might be mistaken for several enemies (he'd smell subtle pungent smells but he wouldn't know that they are rats).
Animated armor would smell the same as regular armor.
As suggested before, utilize strong scents to mask trails. A pot of rotting meat would make it impossible to detect anything else. Just check out ways criminals fool sniffer dogs.
Additionally, if the enemies know of your player, Negate Aroma is a 1st level druid, ranger and alchemist spell.
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I would either tell the player that using the spell all the time is impacting on how you enjoy the game. Then propose to change the duration to 10 min or 1 min a level or ban it all together.
Survival checks to follow the sent and Knowledge rolls to figure out the scent are ways (already mentioned) to limit his Knowledge as well. Also ask the player to keep a list of the creatures he has smelled before.
Also, all you neet to tell him is that something new is in range not how far away it is or in what direction. To get more information you need to spend a move action.
Scent
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
If the first warning the players are getting is that the monsters are standing 30' away because they 'smelt them' then the party needs to go back and have a hard think about its tactics and their threat detection.
By the time the creature is within 30' it is probably already attacking.
As above, all he gets told is that he picks up X number of signatures, it doesn;t tell him what they are or necessarily where they are.
I don't see the problem here.
He still has to open the door, he might know something is around the corner (between 5 and 30' away) - but this is no magic radar field.
How I would run it:
Monster smells something that is unfamiliar (the PCs) and knows something is different. It investigates.
PCs enter a place and cannot tell that, out of all the scents available, one particular scent means 'creature X'.
Scent is great for telling the difference in an environment. Without experience (knowledge) it sucks for telling WHAT something is.
I would tell him if a particular odor gets stronger or weaker.
GM: One scent, is getting stronger.
Player: What does it smell like?
GM: *gives description*
Player: Can I determine what it is?
GM: make a knowledge check. (assign bonuses/penalties for how strong the smell is, familiarity, whatever)
- Gauss
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Cheesing a player out of his resource by not allowing him to actually use the ability (you can't work out what smell is the creature) is pretty poor form. Detect Magic and Detect Evil are used as far greater monster spotters.
If the first warning the players are getting is that the monsters are standing 30' away because they 'smelt them' then the party needs to go back and have a hard think about its tactics and their threat detection.
It's nice for detecting invisible things that you can't see 30' away, and unless you're specifically tracking something, it's should pretty much be used by PCs as a way to find invisible enemies during/before combat. If it's a clean room, maybe it smells strongly of incense or something that marks a particular character as being present or recently in the room.
Cheesing a player out of his resource by not allowing him to actually use the ability (you can't work out what smell is the creature) is pretty poor form. Detect Magic and Detect Evil are used as far greater monster spotters.
Neither of these two spells allow you to determine the specific type of creature or even if they are a creature or not. Both spells detect "auras" and their strength and location upon further concentration. They would also be confused by a random evil altar or a magical item.
Additionally, Bloodhound Scent is much better. It has a duration of hours instead of minutes, detects everything and not just evil or magic and requires no concentration, which requires a level 3 spell for Detect Magic!
Bloodhound Scent might need a nerf in duration, it is kinda prone to abuse.
Cheesing a player out of his resource by not allowing him to actually use the ability (you can't work out what smell is the creature) is pretty poor form. Detect Magic and Detect Evil are used as far greater monster spotters.Neither of these two spells allow you to determine the specific type of creature or even if they are a creature or not. Both spells detect "auras" and their strength and location upon further concentration. They would also be confused by a random evil altar or a magical item.
Additionally, Bloodhound Scent is much better. It has a duration of hours instead of minutes, detects everything and not just evil or magic and requires no concentration, which requires a level 3 spell for Detect Magic!
Bloodhound Scent might need a nerf in duration, it is kinda prone to abuse.
As there are some rather easy ways to get scent as a racial ability I think nerfing the spell would be the wrong thing to do.
The spell even has it's build in drawback of upping the save dc for some abilities like stinking cloud.So all in all I think the spell is fine as is. Especially if you look at which classes get it and when.
Ranger: Level 7 gets 0 level 2 spells, so he could get it as his only spell per day.
Alchemist: Level 7, too.
Inquisitor: Level 4. That's earlier, the same level when the summoner gets haste for example. So the one class for which it is special gets it early, every one else at 7th level. Compared to what a wizard can do with a level 4 spell (highest spell at level 7) it is weak.
CWheezy, yes, they can. But can they tell the difference between two scents without training or experience?
In short, no. Give a human scent and yes, he can smell all sorts of things. But, figuring out one smell from another AND what that means is another matter.
Like I said earlier, it is great for noticing a change in the environment. Not so good for anything else without something like experience or knowledge to back it up.
- Gauss
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Welcome to the world of "Magic Ruins Everything."
The problem you're facing is that you have a certain expectation about what the game should be like (i.e. PCs shouldn't be able to detect everything within 30'), while the game itself has another (detecting the bad guys with scent is easily doable, even from level 1, because several classes can acquire companions with Scent).
The PC is using a perfectly legitimate strategy, and you just happen to dislike it. It's douchey to constantly undermine it by having every room be too smelly or give all monsters perfume covers or have every room be 40' across or with strong winds to prevent scent detection.
So, your non-douche options are:
1) Reorient your expectations so that you are ok with the PCs knowing where everything within 30' is automatically.
2) Admit the ability frustrates you, congratulate the PC on his cleverness for finding such a cool thing, and request politely that he stop using it so you can run the sort of game you want to run.
Welcome to the world of "Magic Ruins Everything."
Not really this time because halforcs and orcs can get scent for a feat. So in this case it is not the magic that ruins things but, as you later state, the expectation of how it should be.
That's right, the player burns his resources to get some kind of advantage.
Stick to what the ability says it does - allows him to know something is somewhere within 30'. Yes that might means he knows when an invis creature has come close (bit not where it is), but how many encounters is that going to foil? Does every encounter rely on hidden foes springing an attack within 30'?
He has to actually open a door and funky things like that.
His friends just cycle detect magic and detect evil through doors and walls all day long for 0 resource cost, and they get 60' of more reliable warning.
Pulling the 'you didnt know that smell was a monster' is just having a douchey houserule.
plenty of ways for things to get scent, and if that is breaking a game then you might need to rethink why every encounter can be broken so easily, and its not because of 'scent'.
I don't think that scent works through doors. YOu can tell whats been coming in and out of the door, but not whether there's something on the other side of it.
The best way to do this from the player viewpoint is to determine in every case what they'd realistically be able to smell, based on other scent sources, doors in the way, the type of monster, wind direction and so on.
This will enable them to avoid surprises some of the time but not all of the time, which is how it should work.
Probably a lot of work for the GM, though.
Welcome to the world of "Magic Ruins Everything."Not really this time because halforcs and orcs can get scent for a feat. So in this case it is not the magic that ruins things but, as you later state, the expectation of how it should be.
That and an erroneous interpretation of the way scent works.
PC: 'Is there something?'
GM: 'yes, there is something'
That is literally how the Scent ability works. The biggest problem is that RAW the scent ability is IMHO badly worded.
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet.
[...]
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location.
Note that RAW scent only lets you sniff out 'enemies', 'foes' and 'opponents'. A literal interpretation would not allow you to smell creatures that are not hostile at that point; you could not smell a creature that does not detect or expect you, since there is no hostility. This is a bit nonsensical of course but that is RAW.
Another problem is that the wording says that scent detects 'creatures'. Which is also a bit nonsensical to me, since that would allow you to determine the difference between objects and creatures, even though they might be identical (objects vs animated objects or corpses vs zombies).Also, the wording is vague on whether or not Scent allows you to determine the number of odor-sources. If you come within 5 ft you can pinpoint the source but further away you only detect the presence and (as a move action) direction of odors. Not sure what'd happen if three enemies are standing in a line.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
A human would not recognize a creature if he had never seen it or did not succeed on a Knowledge check. Likewise, scent would not allow you to determine what kind of odor you're detecting without prior experience (this raises questions how you'd be able to distinguish between a creature and an identical non-animated object).
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.
The odor masking part is built-in. It's a GM's prerogative to determine what a 'false, powerful odor' is but I'd wager that rotting meat, sewer water and such would qualify.
Scent might actually need a FAQ. RAW is vague and nonsensical.
That's not what the ability says it does though.
Stick to the RAW, avoid implying a whole lot of stuff that isn't there (benefits or nerfs) and it works fine.
That's not what the ability says it does though.
Stick to the RAW, avoid implying a whole lot of stuff that isn't there (benefits or nerfs) and it works fine.
Yes, that is exactly what it says.
Paizo PRD
But your modifications, and need for Knowledge checks etc is new stuff not covered or stated in RAW.
There is no knowledge check to determine what kind of odour you are detecting, so even going into conversation about that is moot. The player knows there is an enemy about, that is it. they aren't entitled to a knowledge check, for richer or poorer.
But your modifications, and need for Knowledge checks etc is new stuff not covered or stated in RAW.
There is no knowledge check to determine what kind of odour you are detecting, so even going into conversation about that is moot. The player knows there is an enemy about, that is it. they aren't entitled to a knowledge check, for richer or poorer.
The Knowledge check part was only to give a way out of the requirement of 'familiar odors' in the same way that a human could visually recognize a creature through Knowledge checks. That is not RAW, sure. RAW is that a person with scent would not recognize the odor of a creature that he's not familiar with. He'd recognize the presence of the odor but not what the exact source of the odor is.
He'd smell an opponent but not the type, size, etc... Depending on how you rule the 'enemies/foes/opponents' part, a rat would detect the same as a dire lion.Also: what other modifications? Please specify. Almost everything I wrote is a literal interpretation of RAW.
Addendum: this is not the way I'd rule scent as a GM, I like a bit more leeway and logic, but I'm simply stating RAW.
Raw says they know there is a creature within 30'. That's it.
It doesn't get down to micro detail because it doesn't need to, it's an abstracted sense that does a few mechanical things.
They can't use knowledge checks to determine the scent, and nor should they be required to. They simply get told something is there and can then either spend their move action to find it (less useful than it sounds) or otherwise consider making preparations.
It doesn't stop them being flat footed by an invisible creature, doesn't stop the creature just walking in and hitting them (ie on a charge) etc.
I think people are overplaying Scent and implying that it is a magic radar of awesome, and then nerfing it, rather than simply playing the rules provided.
Raw says they know there is a creature within 30'. That's it.
It doesn't get down to micro detail because it doesn't need to, it's an abstracted sense that does a few mechanical things.
They can't use knowledge checks to determine the scent, and nor should they be required to. They simply get told something is there and can then either spend their move action to find it (less useful than it sounds) or otherwise consider making preparations.
It doesn't stop them being flat footed by an invisible creature, doesn't stop the creature just walking in and hitting them (ie on a charge) etc.
I think people are overplaying Scent and implying that it is a magic radar of awesome, and then nerfing it, rather than simply playing the rules provided.
I think we're far more in agreement than we seemed :)
I'm saying that RAW scent only detects hostile creatures, which makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'd waive that part.
If you waive that part and you detect all creatures, a rat would detect in the same way as a gnoll. The local flora and fauna would give a lot of false positives, which is logical.
The knowledge part was mostly an interpretation of how humans can visually identify 'familiar sights'. Ignore that if you want.
The biggest problem I have with scent is that it somehow allows you to distinguish between otherwise identical animated and inanimate objects, like I said earlier. I think the wording should be the detection of odor sources, not 'enemies', 'foes', 'opponents' or 'creatures'.
The definition of a 'creature' is vague anyway.
As for the GM's problem: like Shifty said, scent is not a 'magical radar of awesome'. You and/or your player seem to interpret it as such. Scent simply detects the presence of odor(s), not the exact location, nature or possibly even number of sources.
OK we are probably on a similar path.
Creatures is all I'd give them, not what or which though - allows them some warning, and within 30' if you can smell it but not SEE it then you have to think that there's a problem :p
It's really only good for knowing that something is hiding.
Heh, saw id been ninjad and delteted the post bit w/e - yes, of course it would be silly. my point was that the RAW is vague, and a player arguing that scent shoulfäd be an automatic intent and enemy detector "because of RAW" opens themselves to have the ability nerfed bexause of RAW.
I played with scent a lot:
first, remeber it does not pinpoint a creature,unless yuo are toe to toe with it.It just points the general direction. You need to roam in the general direction until you come in a square adjacent to the enemy. This can be of use to you,or it can not. It is mostly useful when messing with an invisible/hiding enemy.
Second, remeber the rules of the wind. If you are upwind,the range of the ability is halved.
Third, there are a number of ways to cover your scent. The most significant are the negate aroma spell,and the deodorizing agent,a cheap achemical items that renders you scentless for up to 3 hours. It is logical to assume that every stealth-oriented npc would use it, whether he knows about the pc or not.
Finally,the most important thing: a lot of monsters has scent as well. If the pc is scouting alone and comes within 30 ft from the critters, he can be percieved, too. Scent, tremorsense, blind sight, are not that uncommon, even among low-middle level monsters. The dog of the bad guy will allert everyone from lvl 1.
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It's not "cheesing" anything to actually apply those limitations when they should apply - dungeon's stink, and walls are often thick enough to block detection, the rules say so.
It's only 'cheesing' when you literally use cheese as an overwhelming smell ;)
It's not "cheesing" anything to actually apply those limitations when they should apply - dungeon's stink, and walls are often thick enough to block detection, the rules say so.It's only 'cheesing' when you literally use cheese as an overwhelming smell ;)
Yes but vot zheese will produze ze right zmell for non-deteczion.
Young brie will not do a thing, where old camenbert will definetly give an overpowering smell. Itzz a perfect trap as ze player will smell ze camenbert and recodnize ze awfull aroma and know that ze best zheeze zmellz like zhat. He/she rushez forward and snap ze beartrap znapzz inzo aczion.Dutch hard zheeze actually zmellz like zmelly feet and will produze ze zame effect azz ze camenbert and a beartrap.
Italian Mozzarella will not provide any game effect.
Zwizz zheeze might work now and then azz well azz ze zheeze fondue.
zhere ze proffezzor of zheeze hazz zpoken. Zheeze on.
School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, antipaladin 2, cleric 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/2 levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
You greatly magnify the target's ability to smell the presence of blood. The target is considered to have the scent universal monster ability, but only for purposes of detecting and pinpointing injured creatures (below full hit points). Creatures below half their full hit points or suffering bleed damage are considered strong scents for this ability.
Orcs and any creature under the effects of rage gain a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls against creatures they can smell with this spell, or a +4 morale bonus if the target's blood counts as a strong scent.
Blood Scent cannot detect uninjured creatures. By reading the spell, you find out it is not as good as your player thought.
Also, both PRD and SRD show duration as minute per level, not hour.
/cevah
** spoiler omitted **Blood Scent cannot detect uninjured creatures. By reading the spell, you find out it is not as good as your player thought.
Also, both PRD and SRD show duration as minute per level, not hour.
/cevah
The OP said the, Bloodhound spell.
I'd let him attempt to smell something, even through a door, but would have him make a Perception check (I believe that having scent also grants a bonus to the check).
EDIT: Found it in the Special section of the Perception skill: "Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent."
That, BTW, is a fairly potent inference that you should be having them make Perception checks to use Scent.
** spoiler omitted **Blood Scent cannot detect uninjured creatures. By reading the spell, you find out it is not as good as your player thought.
Also, both PRD and SRD show duration as minute per level, not hour.
/cevah
The OP said the, Bloodhound spell.
I'd let him attempt to smell something, even through a door, but would have him make a Perception check (I believe that having scent also grants a bonus to the check).
EDIT: Found it in the Special section of the Perception skill: "Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent."
That, BTW, is a fairly potent inference that you should be having them make Perception checks to use Scent.
My bad. I saw "Scent" and thought it was what we were talking about.
With a +8 Competence bonus on top of the +8 untyped bonus for perception via scent.... I want this spell. Hmmmmm. 2nd level * 4th caster * 2000 * 1 = 16,000 gp for a magic item of this. Too rich for my current WBL. Sigh. You must be careful, as it does have its downsides.
/cevah
