How to run Villians with millenia of experience and INT / WIS scores in the high 20's or 30's?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Okay, I've totally got a handle on how to play your usual NPC's from literally every walk of life. I can do smart and dumb, inciteful and clueless, viscious and calculating, reckless and naive...

...but how do you play someone with mental abilities not just so far beyond your own but beyond that of any human who has ever lived? How do you represent thousands of years of experience? Presumably by giving the NPC every advantage possible when it comes to preparation and foreknowledge, but even if I could do that realistically, how does my party stand against such a foe?

I'm reading through the Wrath of the Righteous and see Demon Lords with an Intelligence of 24 and a Wisdom of 32. We're talking about creatures whom have engaged in every manner of warfare imaginable and have still managed to survive for thousands upon thousands of years. How do I play such a foe and how do My PC's prepare for him? I would expect that literally anything they can come up with would have already been encountered, anticipated, prepared for and mitigated... I want to keep it realistic, but how?


Short answer: You can't.
Long answer: You can wing it by (a) using all the means you outlined, and also (b) by making the villain totally pre-occupied with some major problem that is monopolizing his/her/its attention, to the exclusion of almost everything else -- including the PCs. A villain like that should probably have 2-3 schemes going, not just one, and one of the others might be only barely tangential to the whole story arc, but it might also be draining the villain's time, attention, and resources.


Well, I haven't read through Wrath of the Righteous, but one option is to have another, equally intelligent (or just plain destructive) creature mess up those plans. Essentially, draw his attention and resources to a different front, and that provides the party an opportunity to slip in and launch a surprise attack.

This could be an allied celestial, or maybe an opposing demon lord or maybe just some random unaligned monster from the high CR range. Have his guard's numbers reduced because they had to take out a high level Kami or something.

Note, this does not necessarily have to be a prescence that the party ever has to have interacted with, but it makes a nice detail if you have a castle that is charred and with a couple walls broken. Have come underlings cleaning up the mess and commenting on the incursion. It provides a perspective of a world that doesn't revolves around the party and two major otherworldly players.


Here's an idea to try, it's based on some roleplaying advice I read somewhere years ago but I can't remember the source anymore. It's a bit time-consuming but should help.

Without the players around build a party of four adventurers, a typical fighter/wizard/rogue/cleric of the appropriate ECL. Then rehearse the attack using the mock party you've created, rather than the PCs.

Figure out all the strategies that a typical party would use and invent a counter-strategy for the demon lord to use.

This way the demon lord will appropriate reflect that they're prepared for the typical party and won't make any classic blunders, but the PCs can potentially surprise them using their own unique characters and/or strategies.

Also remember that if the PCs are famous, any strategies that they are well-known for can be researched by intelligent adversaries who see them coming. Feel free to develop counter-strategies to any tactics the PCs are famous for.


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You prepare. Knowing the monster backwards and its offensive and defensive options is a must. It should always be fighting on it's terms, not the pcs. Not just traps and resources but complete mastery if the environment it exists in.

Invisible scout? It should have a means to detect, isolate and kill said scout unless they are exceptional.
Getting past the front liners to the weaker spell users? It should have a tactic for this.
Splitting the party up? It should be doing this with whatever magic or environmental exploitation it has at its disposal.

The pcs favoured tactics I would assume it has faced before and should have a counter prepared.
The pcs in a close formation? Area spells.
The pcs have slower members of the party? Fight the fight over a large and difficult area to spread them out.
PC's fly? Attack those pcs in the air.
Remember a PC in trouble forces the whole party onto the back foot in that they will try to save him.

The advice is generalised but I am sure you could apply it to a specific bbg. Good luck.

Shadow Lodge

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Short answer: The party alone (assuming they are mortal, alone, have human lifetimes and no external preexisting organization hell bent on stopping said threat) can't and said enemy has to majorly f~$$ up.

The long answer:
1. The party has to live a very long time and the game has to take place over a very long time: Basically you are taking on an immortal enemy who has an immortals time and will use it, therefore the party has to get used to that with plans simply failing because the enemy decides he's cool to wait them out a century or 12 before he picks up again. This can be interesting as you get the characters to really use those long lived races or have to play their great great descendent, continuing the work of their ancestors to burn this evil off the face of existence. This can also be a great way to watch players who get really attached to a character try to find radical ways to prolong their life and therefore survive until that time.

2. Other organizations: In the case of Wrath you basically have this one. Remember that though the PC's will be the nail that drives this coffin home they are working with organizations that have been trying to smash this monster for at least 100 years if not more with the Riftwardens having been trying to stop planar shenanigans like this for centuries, the various paladin and cleric orders of Iomede and other LG gods having been training for this stuff for millenia (and with some of the empyreal lords since the beginning of time), the green faith wanting to stop this crap since it's inception and even more now that Sarkoris is gone, and the sordid history Deskari already has had with the region for centuries since he fought and lost to The Last Azlant you have a host of people who've been preparing to take this sucker down for a while now. Now the key to making this approach work is that the players understand that at the end of the day this was a massive effort by countless individuals over millenia of time in order to put Deskari and his minions into the ground and that without them no one could have actually laid him to rest. On top of this you have his hubris as an immortal being like that and the lack of caution with mortals. To him we are but ants but these 4-6 players are the ones that will cause him the aniphylactic shock that he would have never expected.


Another thing you can do, though some folks might frown on it, is "cheat" a bit. Is the enemy a prepared caster or some sort? Leave a handful of his slots open to represent him having the foresight to prepare "just the right spell" in response to given tactics. Would it be really useful for one of the pillars in his throne room to be trapped to fall on top of the PCs at that exact moment? What do you know, he used his superior intellect and prepared for just such an occasion.

However, you need to be judicious in using something like this. If the villain suddenly has a counter for everything the PCs throw at him (unless they always use the exact same tactics and the villain has a way of knowing they do) the players will cry foul and with good reason. But if he can pull out one or two tricks during the fight that the PCs didn't expect, it will make things more memorable for them and give that feel of sparring with a higher intellect.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One thing I'd do is listen to the party as they make their plans on how to take down the Big Bad. Even the OOC stuff. And make your plans accordingly. This supra-genius level evil has already thought of your particular plan, and come up with some way to counter it as best it can. Is it cheating? Only a little. GMs get to cheat, though, so it's all good.

Grand Lodge

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Story Archer wrote:

Okay, I've totally got a handle on how to play your usual NPC's from literally every walk of life. I can do smart and dumb, inciteful and clueless, viscious and calculating, reckless and naive...

...but how do you play someone with mental abilities not just so far beyond your own but beyond that of any human who has ever lived? How do you represent thousands of years of experience? Presumably by giving the NPC every advantage possible when it comes to preparation and foreknowledge, but even if I could do that realistically, how does my party stand against such a foe?

I'm reading through the Wrath of the Righteous and see Demon Lords with an Intelligence of 24 and a Wisdom of 32. We're talking about creatures whom have engaged in every manner of warfare imaginable and have still managed to survive for thousands upon thousands of years. How do I play such a foe and how do My PC's prepare for him? I would expect that literally anything they can come up with would have already been encountered, anticipated, prepared for and mitigated... I want to keep it realistic, but how?

Here's a bit of text from the late Erick Wujick that might help your perspective. It's a quoted section from Amber Diceless Roleplay.

Being Smarter Than You Are.

Here's a shocker.
You, the Amber Game Master, are not as smart as any of
the elder Amberites. Yet it's your main job to role-play them
accurately. You have to hatch the kind of plots that this devious
lot might come up with, and plan grand strategy, and appear
to be always one step ahead of the player characters.
Amberites routinely engage in manipulations so subtle that
their actions are completely invisible. For example, having put
some scheme into motion, an Amberite might communicate
with his confederates with a signal as slight as the arching of
an eyebrow, or the tiny adjustment of a bouquet of flowers.
So how the Hell are you, a mere Shadow dweller,
supposed to emulate all that?

Trickery. Pure Game Master trickery.

Backwards Planning.

When things are winding
down to a close, and it's obvious how a phase of the campaign
will end, have elder Amberites show up at the last minute.
Having been unavailable throughout the entire story, they'll
appear at this point of closure, having arranged for everything
necessary to defeat the threat, their explanation being that they
had planned for that contingency all along.

Assuming the Best.

When in doubt assume that the
elder Amberites know exactly how to deal with every problem.

Free Peeks at the Universe.

It's impossible to
categorize all of Dworkin's powers, or Oberon's, or Fiona's.
Still, it's pretty safe to assume that they can see a lot farther
than anyone else. From a Game Master's view, it's as if some of
the elder Amberites get free peeks at what is happening in the
universe.

Grand Lodge

The key thing to remember is that long life and endless battles of the same tend to lead to tremendous blind spots. Those are the openings through which heroes win unlikely battles.


Well... int 24 is pretty nasty, but I'm also running an adventure path where if players decide to continue after where it ends they will have opponent with 48 int. Now that is something to wrap your head around.

Keep in mind that game time and real time are often going at different speeds, where your big bad might have only seconds to rethink his/her plan, you can have much more time than that. Using that wisely can help you cross that cap between you and your characters.

Liberty's Edge

I generally try to shy away from encouraging an adversarial role between the GM and the players, but a little of that goes a long way in playing hyper-intelligent foes. Look at your party and consider your monster: who's the biggest threat? Does the monster need to move freely, making a controller the threat? Or do they have mighty saves and SR, meaning that the Paladin and its ability to breach DR and inflict terrible smiting damage is the greater threat? Smart villains should be just as aware as you, no doubt are of the dangers of action economy.

Now, like I said, a little of this goes a long way since a monster that has a perfect counter and makes every action a slog through the mud is a challenge, to be sure, but is also a threat to fun - gauge your players carefully and give 'em hell!


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The quotes LazarX posted are dead on. To keep this from getting too frustrating for your players, you might want to establish a contingency pool. Designate a value in magic items, henchmen, preparations, etc. for them to represent insightful preparations.

For example, say you have a lich that knows the PCs are going to attack. You determine he's got a reserve of 8,000 gp in magic items, a CR 12 henchman and 9 spell levels of defenses. These reserves represent having just the right tactic prepared to counter the PCs

So as the attack sets in, one of the PCs leading the attack has DR/Adamantine; use 3,000 gp of that reserve to make its golem's main weapon adamantine because he'd predicted he'd need it. When the PC monk glides past the front lines to grapple the lich, a succubus teleports in to intercept him; the lich had arranged in advance to have her scrying to teleport in at his signal (that uses up his reserve henchman). The PC bard unexpectedly gets in close enough to use a Greater Shout; the lich had a resist energy (sonic) spell active (using two of his reserve spell levels). But once that reserve of abilities is gone, you've reached the extent to which the lich's vast intelligence was able to predict and prepare in advance and beyond what you as a GM could see yourself as reasonable precautions.


Two points:

HUBRIS. This is a big one. Demon Lords have egos the size of Siberia which makes them prime targets to be hoisted by their own petards.

PCs are going to have stratospheric stats as well. A wizard with a 20 Int to start with will get +6 from a headband, +5 from Inherent, +5 from leveling, +10 from Mythic Tiers, and possibly boosts elsewhere by the end of the AP. That's 46 Int.


An often overlooked point when dealing with high level outsiders:

Run away

Many of these demon lords and archdevils and what have you can teleport all over the place, so why would they ever fight a group of PCs straight up?

The Lich is hanging out staring down eternity, and he certainly isn't going to risk that to make a point to some mortals.

Wear the party down with hit and run tactics. Like you said, these enemies have lived countless millenia and fought in every type of situation available. Maybe even have the Hubris kick in and let it fight them toe to toe a few rounds before going, "Hey wait a minute, I'm smarter than this," and teleporting out.

Doing things like this will force the PCs to adapt their tactics to the situation, instead of relying on their own "brute force" due to high levels/mythic tiers. I mean seriously, no Pit Fiend worthy of the name will let himself get to half his HP without retreating (unless he's in a superior position, like over half the party is dead).

The other thing to keep in mind is that Supremely Intelligent Evil creatures "cheat". Oh you hit someone and they're down to -1 hp? Well that Demon Lord is going to make sure he hits him again and takes him out of the fight, even if it's with an AOE spell so he's not ignoring the rest of the available threats. They're likely to go after the healer first, then the caster, then the melee guys. Ultimately it's all in finding out what your players do and making them play "outside of their comfort zone" in order to beat a terror like these.


My favorite way to play "millennial" creatures (or really anything that has an existence with no natural end, especially those that can only meet a permanent demise under specific conditions) is to have them act a lot like people who never had bumps, bruises, and scrapes as a kid - which is to say I have them be stunningly reckless as if they believe that nothing could possibly harm them, because that is exactly what they believe after having lived so long without having faced mortality/vulnerability.

...and as for the "so smart or wise they should see anything coming," I put general precautions (tricky traps, some kind of creatures on guard and a type of early warning system) in place, but nothing specific to the group - at least not until they have proven directly to the ancient creature that they are actually a legitimate threat - because the ancient creature realizes that wasting effort on security is a thing, and has better stuff to do with his time.

Much like how people lock the doors & windows, maybe turn an alarm system on, possibly own a dog... and then spend their time doing whatever they want while feeling completely safe, rather than patrolling their house with a gun actively searching for intruders.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Cheat.

You know when I have an evil Wizard with crazy high intelligence I don't even write down his spell-list ahead of time. I just pick spells appropriate to the situation and cast them as needed:
"Of course I knew about your secret fear of electricity. MORE LIGHTNING ELEMENTALS BAHAHAHAA!"

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

When something bad happens to the players have your demon/fey/lich or whatever claim credit.

When something good happens:

"Bah, a minor setback."

When they force the thing to retreat: "I have no more time to attend this backwards world. Pray to whatever pathetic gods you worship that I do not choose to return."


The simple reality is , unless you add another thing to hold the creatures power down, like distractions that are big and would call for the creatures attention over the PCs , or add something that helps the PCs hiding them and giving them a boost.

They are pretty much gonna lose and die.

A creature old like that did not get old like that by being stupid , it got there beating and proving its worth against opponent after opponent.

Just like others said , tip the scale into the parties favor using something, something REALLY BIG.


Allow the villain a personality flaw that will eventually lead to his/her downfall, but until then make him/her a difficult opponent. The mastermind can be brilliant, but still ""human". Perhaps the heroes have to battle the villain indirectly for a time, until he/she is forced to act rashly and all his/her misdeeds catch up with him/her.

Do you know any "geniuses"? Are they dumbshits about certain things? Maybe that helps, I dunno.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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One of my favorite tricks for running really high Wis/Int/Cha characters is to shamelessly metagame. Use knowledge that logic would dictate that the character simply wouldn't know, and now and then if it makes a poor decision that you immediately realize was poor, don't be afraid to immediately backtrack and say "actually... no... it's too smart/wise to do that, and instead does this..." as long as you don't wait TOO long to change your mind.


Worth considering is that 24 intelligence isn't out of reach of the PCs themselves.

The creature might be ridiculously intelligent, but so is the wizard with a headband of intellect.

By the time you're going up against demon lords, you're presumably extremely high level. At level 16, a human wizard who started with 20 in int could be at 24 naturally, and afford a headband to push her to 30, the cleric could do the same for wisdom.

You can probably give some hints to PCs of similar intellect on what they might have in store as a way to prevent a TPK, and between the two of them, they should be able to outdo the demon lord in terms of raw mental attributes if the wizard shares their knowledge and the cleric their insight.

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