So, I've always been fond of the horizon walker PrC. It's always seemed to be like a sort of "planar ranger" to me. Love that. So I'm trying to get this to work out as best as possible. I would build it around a switch-hitter ranger core.The PrC does make you loose access to a lot of abilities, so I was wondering of there where archetypes/feats/multiclassings that would allow me to do better.
Race: Human
25 pts
Str: 16 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 9
Ranger (?) 10/ Horizon Walker 10
Ranger 6
1 Power Attack, Quickdraw
2 Rapid Shot
3 Deadly Aim (Fave terrain: urban or forest)
4 +1 Dex
5 ? (Cleave or vital strike)
6
Horizon walker 3
7 Boon Companion (Fave terrain: astral)
8 (Terrain mastery: astral) +1 wis (Favored terrain: ?)
9 Dimensional agility (Terrain dominance: astral)
Ranger 4
10
11 Dimensional assault (Favored terrain ?)
12 +1 wis
13 Dimensional Dervish, Improved precise shot
Horizon walker 7
14 (Favored terrain: plane of air)(terrain mastery: plane of air)
15 Dimensional Savant
16 +1 wis (Terrain dominance: Plane of air)
17 ?
18
19 ?
20
Now, I've been wondering which ranger powers are the best to replace.
Spells: Very versatile. Plus, they let you use a great number of useful wands. However, you dont get much. I would normally only get 2/1/0 spells plus bonuses. I have good reason to boost my wisdom (to maximize access to dimension door), but even with all the boosts I can think of (4 points from regular, 6 from headband, 5 from books), I would end up with 5/4/2 spells per day. Ok, but so much less than a regular ranger.
-Alternative:
Skirmisher powers: These are interesting. They're a lot more flexible than spells, and can be used more often. They are still limited by the PrC (1/2 ranger+wis), but with the boost proposed earlier, I would get to use them 15/day. Not bad, but not great. Plus I loose wands.
Trapper traps: Same advantages & limitations as the skirmisher. Launch trap is cool though.
Hunter's bond: This is a doozy. I quite like the animal companion, but the fact it stops scaling is really painful. I know they recently came out with a feat that lets you gain an animal companion (Animal ally), maybe there's another that lets you continue regular scaling? I can really afford the 2 feats for animal ally. As for the companion, I would probably go with a Roc, or something more exotic depending on the GM (Maybe leadership+monstrous mount of some kind?).
-Alternatives: Freebooter: I like this archetype. Without a favored enemy, it's much more flexible. It's alternative to an animal companion is also very useful to a group. I'd probably have to reflavor it though, thematically it doesnt fit. And "fast swimmer" is so useless.
Woodland stride: Only thing I would love to get rid of. It's SOOO specific. And there are no decent replacements. Sigh.
Favored Terrain: Might be replaced. You get it with horizon walker anyway, but they could be used together. Haven't noticed any decent alternatives though.
Favored enemy: Also useful (and flavorful), but situational. Plus I've got limited progression. I would tend to favor taking the freeboter just to get a more generalized version of this.
In summary, I'm trying to make a sort of survivalist planar ranger using the horizon walker PrC, with a fondness for dimension dervishing. I've presented a bunch of ways that could make it better, but I'm looking for more ways to improve it. Multiclassing, other archetypes, weird feats, I'm open to most everything. As long as it ends in a dim-dervishing Horizon walker with a penchant for survivalism.
Well, I've been looking at the skirmisher, and I can see 3 powers that could be useful.
-Bolster companion: Lets me bolster the weakened companion. Not too shabby.
-Vengeance strike: good way to help your allies and get a few more attacks
-Rattling strike: Shaken is a decent debuff, especially that there's no save.
A few options to consider:
*Going Rogue instead of Ranger, for the benefits of Terrain Mastery over Favored Terrain.
*A single level of Ranger, for casting and Boots of Friendly Terrain (or just UMD).
*Half-Orc for Endurance.
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In addition to what Pupsocket said (I'd actually enter as a multiclassed Ranger/Rogue, Ranger offers some useful stuff and Rogue means the ability to take Extra Rogue Talent over and over to really pump up those favored terrain bonuses), you might want to keep the favored enemy and spellcasting. Even if the FE seems like a complete overlap and waste with Terrain Dominance, and you don't actually have enough Ranger levels to cast spells.
Having Ranger spellcasting means you don't need Use Magic Device to use Ranger spell wands. So, you can eventually buy a wand of Instant Enemy.
Having a Favored Enemy means you can actually benefit from the spell. The spell treats the target as one of your favored enemies for all purposes. Like, say...its native terrain type. You following? The terrain type you've been racking up a +20 or so bonus in, and have terrain dominance tied to (which lets you use that massive terrain bonus as a FE bonus against creatures from that terrain type)...you can declare whatever creature you use the wand on to count as being from there.
And then, curb stomping commences.
Of course, a charge from a level 3 spell wand is very expensive, so you'd want to save this for important/boss enemies. But it's a nice way to ENSURE you get your terrain dominance working when you really need it to.
-Half-orc could be useful
-Rogue could allow multiple "terrain mastery" talents (up to 5 in fact)(and get a sweet +10 on all fave terrains at level 10 on EVERYTHING) but i'm not sure it's worth taking 3/4 bab and loosing the ranger bonus feats. Especially since the favored terrains give no bonus to hit/damage.
-Dont understand the reason to take only one level of ranger though. Boots of friendly terrain are great though.
Edit: @ stream of sky: I didnt realize what instant enemy could do. That's... dangerous. So basically, if I take terrain dominance: astral, choose a creature native to the astral plane as a favored enemy, I can just transfer it to ANYTHING with instant enemy?
I'm still not fond of rogue, despite it's "terrain mastery" power. Maybe 2 levels of rogue to get terrain mastery at least once, and UMD. Are there any archetypes that could be useful?
I'm starting to agree with you about spellcasting though. I wish there was a way to boost it through feats but eh...
Any ideas concerning the animal companion? Maybe a monstrous cohort that would be thematically appropriate (not just mechanically)?
I'm wondering if the "ranger focus" ability would work with the spell instant enemy. Dont think so.
Maybe the spirit ranger archetype? It doesnt seem much more useful than a low level ranger companion.
Stupid stuff, yeah, I've realized the right way
OK, i've got another question: what creatures are technically native to the astral plane? I assume it includes all native ousiders (other than elementals). Which seems pretty useful.
As for terrain dominance, I'm wondering which "third" would be best. I know I want to take astral (for dim door), and I'm pretty sure I want "plane of air" to get fly. I'm wondering which would be most useful as third. (or possible to replace fly):
-Swamp/Plane of earth: Tremorsense is cool.
-Underground: Darkvision is nice, and the terrain mastery (free blind-fight) isnt awful.
-Desert: immunity to fatigue is great, though less than for the barabrian.
I don't know what is native only to astral. Though, you could always build around your 2nd terrain dominance, and max that one out, rather than the astral, which you're only getting 1st because of the dimensional feats. It's not like you're going to be able to buy/find a wand of Instant Enemy until level ~ 10-12 anyway. It costs 15,750 gp (CL 7 [Ranger 10 has CL 7] x level 3 x 750). That's 315 gp per charge, btw.
In any case, aside from Astral which you're taking for the above reason, I wouldn't even really look at the special ability they grant. Getting massive attack and damage bonuses kind of trumps *any* of those options, so you're best off picking terrain types the most enemies you fight originate from. And even for the two terrain dominances you're not maxing out, the increases from Rogue's terrain mastery and the HW capstone alone mean they'll still be sizeable.
And yeah, if you can find a decent option to replace the companion with, you should. It's going to suck.
You could go Rogue 4, you won't lose any more BAB if you stop there vs. Rogue 2. Ranger 3 is nice for Favored Terrain and Endurance, but Half-Orc obviates need of the latter anyway.
I think the best option is spirit ranger; if I go ranger 10, it will give me 2 spontaneous castings a day of WHATEVER I WANT (in this case, instant enemy). I would still want the wand, but for emergencies rather than day-to-day.
Well, for the moment I have no idea what the astral plane has (what I thought it was is actually the outer planes). I'll still try to find something native to it to simplify my life. Oh, and unfortunately favored enemy doesnt stack with the terrain bonus (sad) so I'll have to see how to maximize the terrain bonus and play around with instant enemy.
I've been wondering, would a staff of instant enemy end up being more useful? The advantages I see are:
1) I can recharge during downtime (campaign dependant)
2) I can quick-draw it (unlike a wand)
3) It's actually cheaper than the wand ( 400*3*8=9600 gp)(though you've only got 10 charges).
In any case, if I stack everything in favored terrain: astral, I should have a +8 by level 13 (without boots or anything), which should start scaling really quickly. With this basic thing, I could get a good +22 on attack/damage (I think). Instant enemy really allows the HW to dominate on all terrains.
It's too bad I cant get level 4 spells, because there's one there that allows me to treat any terrain as favored terrain... I would want a staff of it (if possible) (but I could never recharge it...) or a wand (so expensive though).
In any case, thanks for the help everyone. I'll post a finished build soon. Maybe I'll try to bring it up to level 30.
@stream of sky: I've just noticed, are you the same person that did that optimization thread on EN world?
Edit: I'm thinking of adding "craft wondrous items" as a feat... This would allow me to save on costs, and perhaps build a number of items with the spell "Terrain bond" at least, to spread out my terrain bonuses. A sloted item that allow me to cast "terrain bond" 2/day would have a price of about 28800 gp (cost half), each casting lasting 3 hours, giving me a decent adventuring day.
You mean this thread? If so, yes.
I wrote that before I knew of the Instant Enemy trick, though. So I suggested Guide Ranger instead of normal b/c favored enemy seemed pointless. Obviously, my opinion has since changed dramatically.
Had to google search for it, I kind of forgot about it and never finished it, because not a single person even replied. :(
Sad that no one replied. If you ever want to write up anything about the HW, I can give you a hand if you want. It's my favorite PrC (fluff-wise), and I've started making a full build (up to level 13) with what I've learned here.
Eh, I'm not sure I really like it enough to do a full guide. It has no settings between high and off. Either you feel useless a lot, or the DM gets upset and probably bans your character anyway.
I would have preferred if you got terrain dominance's FE bonus on all your favored terrains, and rather than stacking a single one higher and higher, as favored terrain works, you instead got a small to moderate bonus that grew slowly and each time you gain FT, you simply add another one to the list that you can apply the bonus to.
If you wanted to keep the whole "this class gives you plus [numbers] to attack and damage" as its main mechanic at all, which I probably wouldn't.
I got excited about it to begin with because:
1. It is literally the only noncaster prestige class in all of PF that doesn't utterly suck. Still to this day. You can actually take every level in it and not end up obviously weaker than you would have been just advancing in your base class.
2. The insane numbers, while kind of distasteful, do allow you to make otherwise terrible, un-workable builds possible.
I thought HW would be a great way to build a representation of Miyamoto Musashi. A guy who was utterly undefeatable in duels (Instant Enemy, hint hint) but not so renowned for mass combat. And would be so unstoppable despite being a noncaster (already gimped, in D&D/PF, just on that) who uses two-weapon fighting (very underpowered fighting style) and often utilizes improvised weapons (do I even need to explain how bad this is in D&D/PF?). The fact that HW, whether you're getting the FE bonus or not, is effectively giving you small to huge initiative bonus no matter where you are and the fluff of being connected to the land also fits in well with how Musashi would get the drop on foes by showing up late, or when he suspected an ambush, showing up before the ambushers, and just in general how he'd use his environment to his advantage.
Yeah, I understand the baning concern. It makes for a useful"nova" power in a way. THat can easily be OP.
But without instant enemy I would tend to think the class would be fairly limited. You're loosing a lot, and without the "nova" of a fully-stacked terrain dominance, you're a lesser ranger. With several less feats, less favored enemy bonus, and no "master hunter". I guess before trying such a character, I would have to talk with the GM, see what he would find reasonable. Maybe limit the stacking to +14 or the like? I dont know what i'd do as a GM. In my mind, I see it as similar to smite evil, but slightly more flexible. It does get silly though, with more than +20 to hit and damage for several minutes.
In the end, I care little about the mechanic, mainly about the fluff. I wanted to make the PrC "work" in the context of the game. And without that ability, you loose a lot mechanically. Dim door is cool, but it just increases mobility; most of the other terrain dominances are just as situational. It's also always bothered me that the fluff (HW=master of ALL lands) doesnt match the mechanics (HW=master of 1-3 lands maximum).
I also wish there was more variety in the terrain mastery/dominance choices, because they vary SO much in usefullness/power that it seems ridiculous sometimes.
I like the musashi comparison though. Very thematic. If you could have the "terrain bond" spell you could even reproduce your last sentence (by basically turning the land into your best land).
Well, I finished up a build. Up to level 13:
I think I would personally cap the favored terrain "stacking" at +10 (+14 with "master of all lands") so as to not drive a GM insane (or get myself and my character banned). It would compare quite well with maximum power of "favored enemy". It would also allow me to round out some of my other "favored terrains".
I also created a custom item especially for horizon walkers: the "Duster of the Traveler", that lets you cast "terrain bond" twice/day at CL 10.
I think I'm going to start up a thread in homebrew for extra "terrain dominance" examples (all I can think of the hasnt been coverd are the positive & negitave energy planes, and the void). I guess the other chosen "terrain dominances" will have to depend on the campaign, because the other that I thought had value (ie plane of air) has limited value. I might take underground for the free "blindfight" and darkvision.
And I'm definitly seeing a lot more good to the "spirit ranger" archetype. It's the only case of spontaneous casting with a full spell list, definitly cool.