Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking for the UNC, Brighthaven or its merchant caravans traveling abroad, will not be an exclusive or primary target of the UNC's bandit activities.
They will be subjected to SADs or ambush, based on the conditions that present themselves at the moment. Those conditions will not be unique to them, nor advanced due to relations between UNC with TEO or any other company associated with Brighthaven.
If Brighthaven has made arrangements from trade to travel from its settlement to a Pax controlled settlement, and the UNC is made aware of this, this caravan will not only travel unmolested by the UNC but it might even be granted additional protections (provided by 1 Copper Piece SAD). If this same caravan wished to have an actual escort, then the UNC would be willing to accept such a contract for the fair going rate for such services.
The UNC does not have any declared enemies, only friends and allies. We are equal opportunity robbers, we will go where the coin can be found.
I would not rule out the opportunity for one-off business dealings. Not being Lawful allows for some flexibility under circumstances of duress, such as if someone has declared war against Brighthaven itself and a little Chaos behind enemy lines could help out. These situations are likely to be rare, but not entirely off the table. Though, once again, such is how I would run the settlement but none of it is set in stone.
And as rare as it might be, and surprising as it might seem, UNC is open to assisting Brighthaven if such an unfortunate circumstance should arise. I would personally recognize it as the most dire of moments that Brighthaven would call upon the UNC for assistance, and depending on the nature of your enemy, that aid may come at little or no cost.
I would consider it an honor to aid a fellow EE settlement / company if it were on the brink of annihilation from a non EE settlement or company.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect any difficulties we are facing from the UNC is more a factor of us providing easy opportunity for exploitation. Political relations do little to impact the value of coin or goods that can be lifted from travelers, nor does it much impact how many armed guards one has to defeat in order to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I cannot make commitments for the Crimson Wing, but we were discussing establishing in a Neutral or Lawful Good alignment anyway.Being, I am not very informed on the nature of The Crimson Wing. But if your group is falling under the "Good" spectrum, then we would certainly be willing to work together with you if your group decides they would like to join in this undertaking.
CW is a moderately large organization but they were headed for LG until I expressed my preference for NN, and the guild may compromise at NG. They may well not, it remains to be seen. If they do decide to go LG I will likely commit my destiny's twin to play either NG or LN to comply.
In my mind my main's intentions remain true neutral.
What would be difficult for me is if no true magnificent villains arose. I do not think the game will be viable without the bad guys.
I'll join Brighthaven.
And before anyone says it: "He seems legit."
So what is Brighthaven's policy on RL xenophobia and other bigotry?
Someone's pouring gasoline onto this thread. Anyone have a match?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what is Brighthaven's policy on RL xenophobia and other bigotry?
Is there some question in your mind that it won't be the same for everyone else?
There is no room in my mind for RL bigotry or any negative ethnocentric view that disparages another's culture.
This question of your's seems to me, to be coming from left field.
So what is Brighthaven's policy on RL xenophobia and other bigotry?Is there some question in your mind that it won't be the same for everyone else?
There is no room in my mind for RL bigotry or any negative ethnocentric view that disparages another's culture.
This question of your's seems to me, to be coming from left field.
Good post. Yes, Papaver, that question did seem to come somewhat out of left field. What prompted you to ask that question?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about religions and temples?
Some may be Good, but not urban others may be urban and not Good. How would Pharasma be accepted. Would Desna be granted a PoI (or two) upon roads and intersections? Erastil is LG, but not really urban. Is the a PoI (or 2) in a harvest zone? Gozreh, Cayden Cailen, Sheyln, Calistra, Nethys? Abadar is a strong City focus and a great strength, but not Good.
And the River Kingdom local divine ensemble?
How will the community keep worshipers of Asmodeus or Rovagug out, or will you? They are most remote from your concept, but may have their uses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good to hear. I like Andius, couldn't see it going any other way either.Something tells me you missed a comma...
What ever do you mean? =P
Seriously tho. If this is a genuine concern of Papaver's, which it seems like it is, I would hope that the EULA would hit on this and across the board everyone regardless of personal differences would take this same stance.
RL Racism has no place in an MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can pretty much guarantee we will not allow bigotry in public channels and deal with any private instances that get reported very seriously. This hasn't been voted on yet but I can't imagine the vote going any other way.
I concur. Though I actually thank you for raising the point, Papavar. It is definitely something that should be in a Charter/Constitution. At the end of the day, we probably would not have much ability to control what people think. Xenophobes and bigots will exist, and may even join with us, but that does not give them license to create a toxic atmosphere. If they have such tendencies they will be expected to keep them to themselves. Exact punishment would be subject to vote, but I would like a Stern Warning and then potential Exile if they are unable to hold their tongue.
As members of a shared Settlement, I would extend even further to say that the rule of the day could even be "You do not have to like everybody in the settlement in RL, but you are expected to respect them enough to remain civil in RL. If that is not possible for some reason, you will be expected to seek out the aid of a city administrator in resolving the dispute." In character conflicts are expected and are being built into the game. RL conflicts should hopefully be rare in general.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about religions and temples?
Some may be Good, but not urban others may be urban and not Good. How would Pharasma be accepted. Would Desna be granted a PoI (or two) upon roads and intersections? Erastil is LG, but not really urban. Is the a PoI (or 2) in a harvest zone? Gozreh, Cayden Cailen, Sheyln, Calistra, Nethys? Abadar is a strong City focus and a great strength, but not Good.
And the River Kingdom local divine ensemble?
How will the community keep worshipers of Asmodeus or Rovagug out, or will you? They are most remote from your concept, but may have their uses.
Religions and temples are going to be a factor of the population, how much space we have to support structures or POIs, and the general benefit to the community. I would imagine that after one or two shrines or temples, the benefits of additional ones may not be prudent given limited settlement space.
I believe most worshipers of Rovagug would do so in secret and attempt to keep that hidden from the city at large. Worship of Rovagug is something I do not see the settlement permitting. Asmodeus has a less destabilizing effect upon areas where he is worshiped, but I would not be comfortable hosting any shrines, temples, or POIs dedicated to him. Personally, I would not permit worship of either deity. Though LN followers of Asmodeus may be able to hide their faith well enough to be permitted in the city. Evil-aligned deities in general will hopefully find little room in Brighthaven. Keeping them out in the first place is certainly a strategy that would need to be discussed. Worship of neutral deities will be more permissible.
This is again, way too early to establish actual policy. And this response is my personal opinion on the matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to thank everyone for the above statements. I have in real life and in other, less mature, online communities experienced some pretty vile stuff, some of it directed at me some of it directed at others.
And while It was always heavily implied that the general consensus would be as seen above I feel a lot more comfortable with it explicitly spelled out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If Goblinworks and the community work together to stamp out "toxic" behavior, I think we can expect a lot less racism, sexism and homophobia than these games tend to generate.
Even though I do hope we can still say "Elves are Gay". Don't think the homosexual community minds that one any more than black people hate P jokes.
har de har.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Arise, Brighthaven. Let thy name not be forgotten in the passage of time!
We have seen a number of topics come and go that I would love to hear thoughts on as they might relate to Brighthaven. No policies are being set, but I would like to encourage discussion among those who support the idea of this settlement. We'll start with one at a time to keep things focused. Keep in mind, that this thread is not discussing the game-world as a whole, but rather as each topic relates to Brighthaven and what people imagine such a settlement being.
Brighthaven is currently being envisioned as a Good-aligned NRDS policy settlement. Though discussion has brought up the notion that only fools would suffer individuals with NPC settlements as their primary home to roam their lands. Brighthaven is likely to be painted in rainbows and butterflies if it turns out the way I envision. Sadly, rainbows and butterflies make the perfect bait for those who just want to piss in someone else's cheerios.
Does declaring NPC settlements as Reds negate the welcoming atmosphere intended for Brighthaven? Or will it be a critical move to ensure the well-being of those who seek refuge in the safety that Brighthaven hopes to create within its borders?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's...a really good question and I'm not sure. I'd like us to be open to new players and those from NPC settlements, but also see the risk in doing so. Protecting our own is equally if not more important.
Going to need to give this some more thought before I answer definitively.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having hostility doesn't REQUIRE attack. Brighthaven can allow reds from NPC towns into the settlement for trade or recruitment and not kill them even once.
Suggestion: Limits on gathering and total reds at a time.
Suggestion: "Business hours" concept when reds can visit under a truce as long as they don't make trouble.
Those limit the ability for genuine hostiles to gather to do anything untoward. Being red, if a visitor DID start acting suspicious they can be removed from town at low cost. The red factor just gives Brighthaven an edge while allowing visitors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having hostility doesn't REQUIRE attack. Brighthaven can allow reds from NPC towns into the settlement for trade or recruitment and not kill them even once.
Suggestion: Limits on gathering and total reds at a time.
Suggestion: "Business hours" concept when reds can visit under a truce as long as they don't make trouble.Those limit the ability for genuine hostiles to gather to do anything untoward. Being red, if a visitor DID start acting suspicious they can be removed from town at low cost. The red factor just gives Brighthaven an edge while allowing visitors.
Good ideas.
Having hostility doesn't REQUIRE attack. Brighthaven can allow reds from NPC towns into the settlement for trade or recruitment and not kill them even once.
The concept of Reds is that they show to you as hostile. There will be reds that are from NPC settlements and reds that are from you being in a feud state, war state or many other states. The moment you start not killing reds on sight is the moment you are allowing those at war with you or at feud with you to freely wander your lands. Have fun with that
The way the Eve system works (and I mention it because I don't expect the PfO system to be much differently to Eve unless the Devs tell us different if they have such a system at all) is as follows
You can set what are known as standings on a scale of +10.0 to -10.0 for an individual, corporation or alliance (individual, company, settlement/nation for PfO). In practise the only values ever used tend to be +10,0 and -10 on the whole equating to Red, grey and blue.
Everyone is grey to you, every company is grey to you and every settlement/alliance is grey to you until you explicitly set their standings. I would not expect any magic wand to automatically color any particular subset of individuals you will need to do it.
(As a point of interest standings are not inheritable by the target. If player A is in corporation B and you set no standings for player A. But you set corporation B to +10 blue then player A will show as blue to you until such a time as you change the corporation standings or he leaves the corporation at which point he will suddenly turn from +10 blue to 0 Grey)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's more dangerous to let reds roam our lands than be called fools. The way the game is set imo, is that reds are hostiles intended to be shot insight.
I hope GW develops the game more into the direction of NRDS to be competitive with NBSI. The game has reds, yellows and greens and making yellows stand out in some scenarios is something, I think we desperately here at Brighthaven need to achieve the atmosphere intended.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For any Not Red Don't Shoot organization the most important question to ask is "What constitutes a red?" In order to truly be NRDS, the default standing you have with everyone else cannot be considered red.
I've always felt that if we have at least 5 visually distinct statuses we should roughly base things off the system we used in Darkfall:
Allied- Official allies. Can be trusted as fully as we trust our own members.
Friendly- Groups we view as very non-threatening / positive. Should generally be viewed with less suspicion than anyone below this rating. Not to be robbed/attacked even if low rep unless in self defense.
Neutral- Unknown group or a group on which we don't have reason to view as either friendly or wary. High/medium rep players from these groups should not be attacked unless they provide us with just cause. Low reputation players can be attacked or spared at your discretion.
Wary- Groups that have for some reason given us a reason to attack them such as attacking / robbing our members and allies. These players may be attacked / spared at your discretion regardless of reputation.
Hostile- If you can kill them without greatly hurting your rep/alignment, you should. These are groups that are actively targeting us / have displayed griefer tendencies etc.
I think largely each group within Brighthaven should set these up independently. However I don't think anyone in BH should be setting a neutral policy much more harsh than that or dropping people below neutral based on flimsy excuses.
Unless it proves to be unviable I feel all newb companies should be viewed as neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I tend to disagree with having each group within Brighthaven establish independent levels about how they will treat visitors to the settlement. That is eventually going to cause a lot of confusion around the settlement when some groups are more aggressive in defining reds and others are less aggressive. That would leave potential visitors uncertain of who may currently be around to welcome or drive them away. That is a very negative trait when wanting to make yourself welcome to Neutrals.
Settlement level definitions should be in place and defined around the settlement. Individual companies would be free to hold their own definitions outside of the settlement, but should respect definitions within.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Arise again, oh town of Brighthaven. We've gone about a whole moon cycle without discussion. Just want to keep it high in the minds of our good aligned populace. We are still looking for guilds and individuals that may wish to get in on the Brighthaven initiative. Settlements may not be available right at EE launch, but we will still have the ability to get the various supporting guilds and individuals together for community-building events.
Again, please note that Brighthaven is a TEO support initiative and not a TEO owned initiative. We are seeking collaborative partners, not lackeys and yes-men.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That was a funny discussion you two ... raised there;)
anyway, regarding the settlement-standings:
so, something to discuss when we get to formulate the actual laws and such with the groups that want to join
would be a way for all citizen-groups (and probably allies) to share their opinions of other groups to base the standing on that brighthaven sets towards a group?
Maybe the diplomates collect this data from membergroups
-group A: invited us to a harvesting-party, +1
-Player 2: robbed one of our members -1
- 15 players of group x corpse-camped two of our members till help arrived
-etc.
and compiles them every (inserted number here) days to set the actual standings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That was a funny discussion you two ... raised there;)
anyway, regarding the settlement-standings:
so, something to discuss when we get to formulate the actual laws and such with the groups that want to join
would be a way for all citizen-groups (and probably allies) to share their opinions of other groups to base the standing on that brighthaven sets towards a group?Maybe the diplomates collect this data from membergroups
-group A: invited us to a harvesting-party, +1
-Player 2: robbed one of our members -1
- 15 players of group x corpse-camped two of our members till help arrived
-etc.and compiles them every (inserted number here) days to set the actual standings.
I fully expect these types of considerations to take place in most well-run settlements. A settlement that decides friends and enemies based purely upon the whims of the leadership and ignores that actions that other groups take for the benefit or harm of their members are likely to see their populations shrinking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There will be different R/G/B setting by different companies than settlement may hold because of feuds. Or will BH hold that a feud against one is a feud against all. That will draw the whole community into more conflict than some companies may wish. The purpose of a feud is to allow some aggression without the whole settlement going to war.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a whole, I imagine the larger Brighthaven settlement remaining outside of company feuds unless such feuds are being perpetrated within the territorial boundaries of Brighthaven, under which case whatever regulations and laws exist will remain enforced to provide for the security and safety that the settlement is meant to espouse.
Whatever arrangements the companies inside of Brighthaven wish to make as for mutual protection agreements outside of that territory will be between individual companies. So just because Brighthaven itself may not march to war on behalf of a company with a feud against it, the chances that any company will be left to fend for itself is pretty thin. But such arrangements are definitely optional.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also keep in mind, feuds can be opened by companies against entire settlements. While it may seem like suicide, depending on how the mechanics work out, Brighthaven "could" find itself the target of a feud through the actions of one of its individual companies or the company they keep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also keep in mind, feuds can be opened by companies against entire settlements. While it may seem like suicide, depending on how the mechanics work out, Brighthaven "could" find itself the target of a feud through the actions of one of its individual companies or the company they keep.
This is certainly something to be very mindful of. Though my point was more to offer assurance that Brighthaven is not to be used as a hammer by a minority of dominant organizations.
I expect feuds against settlements to operate largely for groups hoping to disrupt an area and not conquer it. Feuding against Brighthaven will be viewed much as would setting up large violent banditry operations in the territory. I feel that if individual groups are provoking hostilities then we will see full-fledged war declarations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also keep in mind, feuds can be opened by companies against entire settlements. While it may seem like suicide, depending on how the mechanics work out, Brighthaven "could" find itself the target of a feud through the actions of one of its individual companies or the company they keep.This is certainly something to be very mindful of. Though my point was more to offer assurance that Brighthaven is not to be used as a hammer by a minority of dominant organizations.
I expect feuds against settlements to operate largely for groups hoping to disrupt an area and not conquer it. Feuding against Brighthaven will be viewed much as would setting up large violent banditry operations in the territory. I feel that if individual groups are provoking hostilities then we will see full-fledged war declarations.
I try to avoid saying anything negative in someone else's dedicated threads, so I hope you take this as intended.
Feuds will often be a prelude to war, and will likely be waged (feuds) by groups not directly associated with the settlement that will wage war against you. They will use the mercenaries to soften up your settlement's DI. feuds will be used to test your responses and to determine who will stand and who will fold.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lifedragn, this is really a well-thought and elegant introduction! I'm quite glad I stumbled across the post as I will definitely be a friend of such an admirable settlement. I'm still trying to figure out my place in Golarion and I'm glad their is a noble option such as this.
By the way, to those questioning Papaver's inquiry about xenophobia and how it will be handled by this establishment, bugger off! That was a perfectly fine question indeed and I applaud him for bringing the question up. His reasoning for asking shouldn't be up for discussion and he shouldn't have to disclose it to the entire Paizo community. This is in no way meant to derail this thread I just found some people's replies quite chilly indeed. Sarenrae's fire should warm it up :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I try to avoid saying anything negative in someone else's dedicated threads, so I hope you take this as intended.
Feuds will often be a prelude to war, and will likely be waged (feuds) by groups not directly associated with the settlement that will wage war against you. They will use the mercenaries to soften up your settlement's DI. feuds will be used to test your responses and to determine who will stand and who will fold.
Feuds in addition to wars are certainly a differently type of creature, and really are something of an extension of a war. The danger of a feud is going to lie in the strength of Brighthaven to defend itself. If Brighthaven is weak, such early feuds would cause havoc. But if it is relatively strong, it would be more costly for individual groups such as mercenaries to try to do prelude-feuds because of the risks and costs of doing so. The influence would be better saved to join a larger assault all at once.
But I wasn't going to go into such nuances as they did not seem pertinent to Lam's question, which was basically a combination of "What is Brighthaven's response going to be if some group pisses someone else off and they attack Brighthaven as a whole in retaliation instead of just focusing on the company." and "If TEO or some other influential group in Brighthaven declares a feud against another company, is all of Brighthaven intending to join in." The answer to the first is that it will depend on what laws get written by the future town council. And the second is No, Brighthaven will not be involving itself in the feuds of members unless directly feuded against as a whole by an opponent. Though Brighthaven will treat non-consensual PvP as part of a feud as a crime in its home territory (assuming such classifications can be made).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The policy which I have always believed we should take is that all outside feuds brought into Brighthaven should be treated as crimes. Whether this is against a member company of Brighthaven or an unaffiliated neutral the only players we should accept being killed within our borders outside self defense / defense of others are the official enemies of Brighthaven itself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The policy which I have always believed we should take is that all outside feuds brought into Brighthaven should be treated as crimes. Whether this is against a member company of Brighthaven or an unaffiliated neutral the only players we should accept being killed within our borders outside self defense / defense of others are the official enemies of Brighthaven itself.
I doubt you will be able to criminalize feuds, especially not those being waged by your own sponsored companies. Than on top of that you would criminal flag your own settlement members if the feud takes place in your (their) own controlled hexes.
I also think the opposite will be true. You won't be able to criminalize an action or activity, but exempt your own citizens from the law. As real world as it my seem with secret police, in Dictatorships, being above the law. I doubt GW woukd allow it, unless it is something that can be used by only a few alignments.