im thinking of making a dual wielding duelist who uses a classical rapier and dagger combo
the campaign i would use him in would start around level 10 (though it could change based on how long my current character survives)
and im seeking advice on how i could make this build more viable cause i wont be hitting the best
but maybe if i add a bit of feinting to the mix could make it more team friendly
( Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.)
this would mean i could force an enemy to lose his Dex bonus to my allies attacks correct?
perhaps it would help be anti boss, cause i don't think we have ever used feints in any campaigns so it would be a nice twist to combat.
Well... I played a character just like this and I did it as a rogue.
Feat wise I took:
Weapon Finesse (via finesse rogue talent)
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Combat Expertise
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Two Weapon Fighting
Imp Two Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Feint
Hero's Display
Performing Combatant
You can get 3 extra feats along the way from the Rogue Talents 'Feat' and 'Combat Trick' and 1 for being human.
The other key rogue talent is Offensive Defense.
Your damage comes entirely from sneak attack.
So the basic plan is to use Two-Weapon Feint to feint against your target. A successful feint allows you to make a swift action performance combat check. Performance combat lets you treat any combat like a performance, which is why I liked it for my swashbuckler. With Hero's Display, on a successful performance check you can make a free check to Intimidate everyone within 30 ft.
Then you make your attacks against your target. Your earlier feint made him flat-footed to your first attack, so you get sneak attack damage. If this attack hits, it also activates Shatter Defenses on that target making him flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. So all subsequent attacks also get sneak attack damage.
It was pretty effective and I had a lot of fun with it.
Performance checks are a bit tougher early on (it is a DC 20 charisma check) but you get bonuses if you have ranks in a perform skill like dance, (which I also think fits for a fencer) and for a high BAB.
Key item here is a Circlet of Persuasion which will give you a +3 competence bonus on Charisma based checks (only costs 4500gp) this will work for feints, intimidates AND performance checks
Well... I played a character just like this and I did it as a rogue.
Feat wise I took:
Weapon Finesse (via finesse rogue talent)
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Combat Expertise
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Two Weapon Fighting
Imp Two Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Feint
Hero's Display
Performing CombatantYou can get 3 extra feats along the way from the Rogue Talents 'Feat' and 'Combat Trick' and 1 for being human.
The other key rogue talent is Offensive Defense.
Your damage comes entirely from sneak attack.So the basic plan is to use Two-Weapon Feint to feint against your target. A successful feint allows you to make a swift action performance combat check. Performance combat lets you treat any combat like a performance, which is why I liked it for my swashbuckler. With Hero's Display, on a successful performance check you can make a free check to Intimidate everyone within 30 ft.
Then you make your attacks against your target. Your earlier feint made him flat-footed to your first attack, so you get sneak attack damage. If this attack hits, it also activates Shatter Defenses on that target making him flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. So all subsequent attacks also get sneak attack damage.
It was pretty effective and I had a lot of fun with it.
Performance checks are a bit tougher early on (it is a DC 20 charisma check) but you get bonuses if you have ranks in a perform skill like dance, (which I also think fits for a fencer) and for a high BAB.Key item here is a Circlet of Persuasion which will give you a +3 competence bonus on Charisma based checks (only costs 4500gp) this will work for feints, intimidates AND performance checks
I really like this idea. Like, I REALLY like it. Would you be able to provide a bit more information as to how you achieved this? Like, could I see a level 1 spread and a level 8 spread? Something along those lines.
I'd like to do something similar to this, and my DM has made a race that gets proficiency in ALL swordlike weapons. Could there be a better weapon to use than a rapier if you had access to all sword options?
At least a feat and talent selection order would be nice :)
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well, a baseline rogue gets access to dagger and rapier proficiency, so no worries there. You really need weapons that you can use finesse with. Though I suppose if proficiency in all swords included exotic swords, you could use the Aldori Dueling Sword.
For Race, I personally just like Humans.
So lets take it level by level starting with the point buy. I will assume that you are using 15pt
Str - 10
Dex - 17
Con - 12
Int - 13
Wis - 10
Cha - 13
Feats:
Human Bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue (grants weapon finesse feat)
Level 3: Two-Weapon Feint
Level 4: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (grants weapon focus: rapier)
Level 5: Dazzling Display
Level 6: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (grants a combat feat: Hero's Display)
Level 7: Performing Combatant
level 8: Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
Level 9: Shatter Defenses
Level 10: Advanced Rogue Talent: Feat (Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting)
You get 10 skill points per level (8 from class, 1 from int, 1 from human)
You want to keep acrobatics, perform:dance, intimidate and bluff maxed out. The other points are up to you... no reason you can't still do very well with all the other roguish things.
Your stat bumps at 4th and 8th go right to dexterity.
Shopping List:
Heartseeker weapons (lets you sneak attack targets with concealment)
Circlet of Persuasion (adds to intimidate, bluff, perform checks)
Aside from those it is a very standard sort of shopping list. Dexterity belt, cloak of resistance, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor... all the standard items.
What is combat expertise for? Why not use 2 short swords? They are both lightweapons and will both be effected by weapon focus
Why not use 2 short swords? They are both lightweapons and will both be effected by weapon focus
Because of this; real world fencing techniques.
For the improved/greater feint, so he can get the enemy flat-footed and actually do any damage.
Personally, I would probably go for a single weapon and duelist, maybe using a defensive weapon in the off hand for defense only. Rapier and main-gauche was iirc the staple of Elizabethan era fencing.
If you don't care about finding traps you can always take the Rake archtype as well which will give you a bonus on bluff checks. This is the way I went. You also get a fallback sneak attack ability that lets you intimidate on a sneak attack. I would also put charisma up to 14 at 8th instead of pumping dex again.
In the early levels you'll need to rely more on flanking. The build doesn't truly come together until level 9 when you take shatter defenses, but at that point you should have 9 rank in intimidate, +3 for class skill, +2 for charisma and +3 for circlet of persuasion. That is +17 to beat 10+ 1/2 HD + wisdom modifier.
At level 10, lets say you have a +4 dexterity belt, the CoP, and a pair of +1 weapons. That puts you at 24 Dex (+7). Obviously you might have better weapons at this point, but this is a baseline example.
So your full attack looks like this
(BAB = +7/+1, Dex +7, TWF -2, Weapon +1, Focus +1)
Rapier = +14/+9
Dagger = +13/+9
The Full Attack Sequence is:
(1) Feint +21 vs 10+BAB+Wisdom Mod. (avg of about 20 at this level so not too hard)(Bluff is 10 ranks, +3 for class skill, +3 for circlet, +2 for charisma, +3 for rake's smile)
(2) If successful, Performance Check (DC 20). You get +2 for charisma, +3 for the circlet, +2 for your BAB, +2 for Hero's Display, and +2 for your performance ranks. So you need to roll a 9. This continues to get easier as time goes on.
(3) If successful, make a check to intimidate all enemies within 30ft. at +18 vs. 10+ 1/2 HD + Wisdom Mod. (again, avg of about DC 20 at this level).
(3a) If unsuccessful, make your attack against target's flat-footed AC. On hit, activate Bravado's Blade spending 2 dice. You will deal 4d6 damage and make an intimidate check at +23 versus just that target.
(4) Continue with the rest of your attacks against the now flat footed target. Each hit will add +5d6 damage and give you a +5 dodge bonus to your armor class.
In subsequent rounds you can forgo the feint and just keep intimidating your nearby enemies with performance and shattering their defenses. The second full attack against that single target can result in 22d6+2d4 damage overall, and as you gain levels past 10, you can start to pick up other sneak attack talents that let you deal str/dex dmg or add bleed damage to your hits.
The only struggle for this character is being able to land hits against heavily armored enemies... but for me this made sense for a fencer. As you get higher in level and have access to better weapons and stat items this does get easier.
What is combat expertise for? Why not use 2 short swords? They are both lightweapons and will both be effected by weapon focus
Expertise is a prereq for Two-Weapon feint.. and why not 2 short swords? Because the OP wanted a rapier and main gauche style fencer. Who am I to argue?
I do think that a rapier is a bit wasted on this build since a crit doesn't mean much... and I am also aware that if your goal is "hit hard with a sword" that there are better classes (namely fighter or aldori swordlord). But I did actually play this build... from level 1 to level 16... it is not super overpowered since incorporeal enemies can work you over, but it is very stylish and pretty darn fun. And I also did it with a rapier and a dagger.
Plus, you still have 10 skill points per level to be great at all sorts of things out of combat just like a standard rogue.
One of the problems is that PF at the moment doesn´t have very good non-Eastern defensive weapons. For example, something with the stats of the tonfa or fighting fan could work very nice as an off-hander, but sadly the closest we have is a sword-breaker, and those don´t work all that well for a low-strength warrior.
I would also like to add that as you keep advancing you can take
(1) Dramatic Display: "When you spend a swift action to make a performance check, you exude an aura of awe-inspiring skill. You gain a +2 bonus on your performance check, and gain a +2 bonus on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks until the end of your next turn."
(2) Masterful Display, which lets you combine the effects of Dramatic Display and Hero's Display
and finally
(3) Master Combat Performer which lets you make performance checks as a free action (AKA multiple times per round).
Thank you so much for your descriptions and explanation. This is definitely a character style I'd like to play.
My DM tends to be a bit... stingy with the magic items, so I can't exactly expect a CoP or a Dex Belt.
However, I do have 20 point buy. That should help in getting me closer to the character you are describing.
I think we will have access to relevant starting gold. Level 4.
Circlet of protection is cheap... only costs 4500g
20 point buy will definitely help though... you can get a better starting dex and charisma
There are other items that can help out that may be a little more odd... but a single stat belt is pretty standard gear. Monsters are designed with the assumption thay you will have access to these bread and butter sorts of items.
Either way this isn't an item dependant build.
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A note on taking the Duelist PrC: the way I read the Precise Strike and Parry abilities, you could use Two-Weapon Fighting, sacrifice all of your off-hand attacks to use with Parry, and still get Precise Strike damage to your main-hand attacks, since you're not actually attacking with the off-hand weapon; seems like a good way to simulate real-world rapier & dagger technique. Though while doing this, I think you'd still have to take the TWF penalties to your main hand.
The Full Attack Sequence is:
(1) Feint +21 vs 10+BAB+Wisdom Mod. (avg of about 20 at this level so not too hard)(Bluff is 10 ranks, +3 for class skill, +3 for circlet, +2 for charisma, +3 for rake's smile)(2) If successful, Performance Check (DC 20). You get +2 for charisma, +3 for the circlet, +2 for your BAB, +2 for Hero's Display, and +2 for your performance ranks. So you need to roll a 9. This continues to get easier as time goes on.
(3) If successful, make a check to intimidate all enemies within 30ft. at +18 vs. 10+ 1/2 HD + Wisdom Mod. (again, avg of about DC 20 at this level).
(3a) If unsuccessful, make your attack against target's flat-footed AC. On hit, activate Bravado's Blade spending 2 dice. You will deal 4d6 damage and make an intimidate check at +23 versus just that target.
(4) Continue with the rest of your attacks against the now flat footed target. Each hit will add +5d6 damage and give you a +5 dodge bonus to your armor class.
In subsequent rounds you can forgo the feint and just keep intimidating your...
Question. Why not do the Performance Check first? That way, they have a harder time resisting your feint.
Ah... good question
Performance checks have to be triggered. You need to do something impressive to get one.
Triggers are
Kill an enemy
Roll a crit
Roll max damage (not hard with that offhand dagger)
Succeed at a combat maneuver
Succeed at a feint
Charge
There might be others... I forget. But anyway you can only get a performance check if you succeed at one of those triggers. Luckily feinting is a trigger so it all works.
Also the bonuses from dramatic display are untyped... so you could argue that they stack withthemself.
OK. I'm still unsure of if the swift action performance check can be used during in the middle of a full-round action.
A note on taking the Duelist PrC: the way I read the Precise Strike and Parry abilities, you could use Two-Weapon Fighting, sacrifice all of your off-hand attacks to use with Parry, and still get Precise Strike damage to your main-hand attacks, since you're not actually attacking with the off-hand weapon; seems like a good way to simulate real-world rapier & dagger technique. Though while doing this, I think you'd still have to take the TWF penalties to your main hand.
This. This is how rapier and dagger fighting is supposed to work. (source: I teach Historical European Martial Arts)
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