I have a player making a new character for an on-going game. He is really trying to break the rules (and my patience), but I am trying my best to work with his concept. I am sticking to Paizo-only pathfinder.
His main concept is using Twin Spell and Arcane Fusion. I've been able to solve the twin spell dilemma, but having trouble with the Arcane Fusion.
Since apparently "No" is not a correct response, I promised I'd try to find something equivalent to what he wants. I have addressed using "quickened spell" and also the quickened meta-magic rods, but he dislikes the idea of still needing to use 2 spells slots (either 1st and 4th, or a 5th and 4th) vs using only one (5th level).
Anyone know of other equivalences? This can be spells, class features, feats, items, etc. Any help is appreciated.
What are these abilities and what do they do?
Did you tell him from the beginning that you play with only Paizo material?
If so, then tell him he can make his concept to the best of his abilities, but don't make special exceptions for him unless you're going to make special exceptions for everyone. If a player isn't mature enough to accept that you restrict source material to Piazo material then I wouldn't want them as a player.
@Tinalles- I'll look into the Words of Power. I've never messed with them before, so I'll have to buckle down and read up on it. Thanks.
@Claxon- Tinalles summed up Arcane Fusion. Twin Spell allowed you to cast a spell with +4 level slot, but it fired off twice with the same targets and everything. As far as having them as a player or not, my regular group has had quite a few new "additions". Since I am not able to meet weekly (sometimes they even play 4 or more times a week), I am now the odd man out in deciding what we play and when. We recently switched to each GM getting to picks "slots" of when they run a game and I'm down to 1 or less a month. So, I'm sort of in a position to appease them, while still trying to hold my own. So far, everyone has stuck by the rules, but he is mad that I have ruled against some of his choices lately due to FAQ rulings. (I'm sure we all know players like this).
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Let me give you some real advice here. Do- not- cave- to- your- player-. If you let him have their way with their character concept, do you think this is going to be the only time? Because it won't be. You'll find yourself later with a host of new problems because this player can't get what he wants. Make it easy on yourself and tell him Paizo source material only. Tell him it's not your responsibility to make his character concept work. He needs to find a way to do it within the rules, or get a different concept.
Now as I understand it, he's upset because he wants to cast 4 spells in a round and use only one spell slot to do it. Do you have any idea how insane that sounds? There is a good reason that this isn't allowed.
Do NOT let him do this.
I agree. There is a reason casting one more spell through Quicken Spell increases the spell slot needed. What he wants to do is way too strong, and as the GM, you have every right to ban non-Pathfinder material. Do so in this case.
@awp and Azten, I completely agree with you two. I'm just the kind of guy that will at least try to work with the player. I told him, that I'd see if there was anything that will let him do something similar, but I knew whatever came up would be MUCH weaker than what he wants to do. I am definitely going to read up on the Words of Power since they are in the allowed books. So far, that and the quickened spells using your normal amount of spell slots are the only options I see.
I will tell you my observation is that this player doesn't have a concept. A concept is necromancer, or blaster, or illusionist. Guy who uses metamagic to cast 4 spells in a rounds isn't a concept, it's a munchkin. This player has a goal. To cheese cast by combining rules that obviously aren't balanced compared to core Pathfinder.
I agree with awp832. Don't bend. Not even a little. If he can't handle then either he wont play (which doesn't sound like much of a loss) or you don't GM. With only being able to GM once a month I wouldn't consider it that big a deal since you're going to barely be able to do it at all. Of course, that would be up to the other players as a whole. But don't let him bully you into getting his way.
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"No. HELL no." is a perfectly valid response to something gamebreaking a player wants to try out. Doubly so if it's not even content created for the game you're playing, by its creators.
Your player wants to use a +4 Metamagic on a 5th level spell to cast two first and two fourth level spells in a single round?
Let him-- there is no combination of first and fourth level spells that are going to stack up to being worth that spell slot.
What is he going to do that is game breaking? The damage from those slots won't stack up to something like meteor swarm?
Are you afraid he might cast Shield, a Magic Missile, Polymorph and Ice Storm in one round? All nice effects. . . but for the same spell slot as a Wish?
Your player wants to use a +4 Metamagic on a 5th level spell to cast two first and two fourth level spells in a single round?
Let him-- there is no combination of first and fourth level spells that are going to stack up to being worth that spell slot.
What is he going to do that is game breaking? The damage from those slots won't stack up to something like meteor swarm?
Are you afraid he might cast Shield, a Magic Missile, Polymorph and Ice Storm in one round? All nice effects. . . but for the same spell slot as a Wish?
You're thinking damage. Stoppit. Damage is the least of what a Wizard can do.
Here's ONE possible combo: two True Strikes (1st level spell), two Enervations (4th level spell).
2d4 negative levels. No possibility of missing. No save.
That, at the very least, is exactly equivalent to a 9th level spell (Energy Drain, to be exact).
I'm sure someone creative can come up with something that exceeds that.
Two Phantasmal Killers, alongside a Shield and a Mage Armor or something (ambushed and haven't had time to buff? No problem!).
Black Tentacles and an Acid Pit?
Two Summon Monster IVs?
Hell, even damage wise you can get a pretty hefty 30d6 (per round!) from a pair of Ball Lightning spells tossed out simultaneously at a target.
Also, he may be trying to cheese it down to a 7th level slot with traits, or monty haul style with a metamagic rod of twin.
Also, assuming he can pull it off, he could also quicken the arcane fusion to get 3 1st and 3 4th level spells in one round.
1. Metamagic Rod of Twin you will know if he has. At the point where you are involving a metamagic rod, three of a sorcerer's spells known, and then possibly a feat for quicken spell as well its fair to say that there are ways to do more ridiculous things?
2. So, using a 9th level spell slot on two enervations+2 True Strike while devoting 3 of your sorcerer spells known and a feat to doing this that works out to "getting a true strike for free" but has the same effect (2d4 negative levels) as a 9th level core rulebook spell?
Not exactly game breaking is it?
3. Two summon monster IVs? So he could get the same number of creatures as by using a 5th level spell to cast Summon Monster 5 and cast off the 4th level list? The only situation where that's a net gain compared to casting a Summon Monster of a hirer level is when you are trying to gain versatility-- so two separate fourth level monsters would need to have abilities that you required at the time.
Even then I highly doubt that summoning a Celestial Bison AND a Medium Elemental will ever be worth more than summoning an Astral Deva or d3 Elder Elementals?
Want multiple Phantasmal Killers? Guess what! Weird gets more than two for a 9th level spell slot! And at a higher save DC!
Your 30d6 from a pair of Ball Lightnings are still less than a Meteor Swarm (6d6x4)+ (2d6x4)= 32d6, and again a MUCH higher save DC?
Power Word Kill? No Save Dead?
Is it conceivably worth expending the character resources (spell slots and feats) to do it for the FLEXIBILITY it offers? Yes.
Does it make 9th level spells look weak and underpowered? No.
I don't know the traits that would let him "cheese it down to 7th level" but that seems more a function of the traits than the Spell itself-- and I imagine that a cheesing Maximize spell down to only a +1 instead of +3 is probably on average more powerful than cheesing twin spell down to +2.
As for "Monty Haul" style-- that's on you. As the DM you determine what kind of treasures you are putting out in your game. And if you are running it like a Monty Haul game, then you can't blame players for playing with the tools you give them.
Like I said, people more creative than me can come up with better. Being able to toss out a spell (well, three, actually) and immediately Dimension Door away is good enough on its own to merit a second look.
Even ignoring Twin spell, being able to cast a 4th level spell and a 1st level spell with a 5th level spell slot is broken.
Quicken Spell has a +4 level adjustment, so this is effectively giving you Quicken spell for less investment (should be two 4th level slots to quicken a 1st and still cast a 4th).
It seems to me that you are suffering from a bias against the product, not the ability itself. You are also undervaluing the need to expend a Sorcerer's spells known on each of at least three separate spells.
Well, after clearing up a few things, it looks like he is changing his mind. Mostly because he was wanting to build metamagic rods and use them to cast it as a 5th level spell still. Things changed pretty quickly when I reminded him about the 17th caster level to craft the rods and the fact he doesn't have the money to purchase them (nor the CL to craft).
As for being biased against a product, that is not completely true. I played through all of 3.X's product lifespan and witnessed (and came up with my own) extremely game-breaking concepts. For that reason alone, I've been sticking to the Paizo PF material only as a way to prevent SOME of those same issues. I know it doesn't fix everything, but it does help.
Thank you everyone for your replies!
It seems to me that you are suffering from a bias against the product, not the ability itself.
Not really. I've explained why I don't like the ability. I don't care where it comes from, but in comparison to extant options it is too powerful.
You are also undervaluing the need to expend a Sorcerer's spells known on each of at least three separate spells.
How so?
He only needs one spell here, this Arcane Fusion spell. Then as long as he knows a 4th level spell and 2 1st level spells (and it's impossible not to if he has 5th level spells...) he's good.