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Hi. One of my players is starting to play with his new character, a Cavalier. We're trying to define the stat of his Horse at lvl 1, but I have some doubts about it:
The stats and abilities of the Horse on the Bestiary, are different from the ones written in the description of the Horse Animal Companion...
The Cavalier is considered a Druid of the same level regarding his Mount.
So I'd say that we should use the animal companion stat block instead of the "standard" one from the bestiary... (I find stupid having 2 different "kinds" of horses, but I gave myself this explanation: the druid's animal companions improve over time, so it's reasonable, for balancing issues, that they use a different stat configuration)
But my main concern is about the Combat Training (Handle Animal): in the bestiary description of the Horse is stated that, if a horse is combat trained his hooves counts as primary weapons. This "rule" is not present in the Handle Animal description nor in the 4th level advancement of the Druid's animal companion... so what should we do?
I find really absurd that any player can buy a Combat Trained horse capable of using his hooves as primary weapons, but a Druid (or Cavalier) training his companion cannot teach him the same thing...
That said, a combat trainied Horse companion of a lvl 1 Cavalier will result stronger of any pc, having 3 attacks at full BaB...
What do u think?
Do u have any advice of faq that can resolve this question?
Thanks in advance for support.
Shakujo
Animal companions aren't my strong point, but here goes:
From what I can see the animal companion has a bite and two hoof attacks. The hooves are secondary natural weapons (at a -5 to attack). The horse in the bestiary only has two hoof attacks.
At some point the horse gets multiattack as a bonus feat from being an animal companion, so the hooves will be at -2.
Oh, and always use the stats from the druid entry for animal companions.
What are the other party members?
Well, the horse animal companion only becomes combat trained once your effective druid level reaches 4 (as can be seen in the animal companion advancement). This does seem like an odd oversight, but dont forget that any other rider will have to do a great number of handle animal checks to get the creature to do ANYTHING since they wont know any tricks. You want him to attack? DC 25 handle animal. Same as anything short of just telling it "go there". (Might be wrong, though this could be an effective rule to limit cheap mount abuse)
Well, the horse animal companion only becomes combat trained once your effective druid level reaches 4 (as can be seen in the animal companion advancement). This does seem like an odd oversight, but dont forget that any other rider will have to do a great number of handle animal checks to get the creature to do ANYTHING since they wont know any tricks. You want him to attack? DC 25 handle animal. Same as anything short of just telling it "go there". (Might be wrong, though this could be an effective rule to limit cheap mount abuse)
One of the features of a Cavalier is that their mount is Combat Trained at level 1 (along with Light Armor Prof at level 1). Makes for a much more combat oriented companion, even if you aren't riding them.
Also, as others have noted, the bestiary horse only has primary att hooves, while the companion has primary bite and secondary hooves.
An horse animal companion has an INT of 2, which means it can know 6 tricks.
the "combat trained" package under handle animal is a group of 6 tricks that can be learned "easily"
I figure most GMs will allow you to pick your tricks at level 1, which should be 7, six for the animal's INT, plus 1 "bonus trick" off the animal companion advancement table.
Because of this, you 'should' be able to start level one with a combat trained mount, at the expense of other potential trick choices.
worst case (bad GM) you begin training on day one of adventuring.
Remember that animal companions are not regular animals. As a general rule, ignore the bestiary entry when dealing with animal companions unless the animal companion description refers to an ability described in the bestiary entry.
That said, you can still teach your animal companion combat training at level 1 using its trick slots as MC Templar mentioned. At 4th level, you can invest those trick slots in something else, as you get combat training for free.
Level 4 advancement makes it combat trained, which should make hooves primary. IMHO its obvious oversight that it can be interpreted that secondaryness of hooves is not removed by combat training.
Yes, that may be an oversight. The horse companion as written never gets primary hooves. That said, there are other animals that lose abilities found in the Bestiary when made into companions. Llama companions don't get the spit ability. Hippopotami don't get capsize (not even against itty-bitty boats). This was likely intentional, but there's no reason a GM can't fill the gaps in themselves.
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The players handbook was written before the bestiary, so in all likelyhood it got left out.
The horse you buy at mountmart shouldn't be better with its hooves than a trained animal companion.
So what do you actually get with the 'combat trained' horse advancement at 4th level? (pretty significant since 'mount' is a rather important class feature of the cavalier, and seeing that cavaliers have been restricted to horses or camels...)
Nothing, as cavalier mounts are always combat trained.
Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the cavalier's level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
A cavalier does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A cavalier's mount does not gain the share spells special ability.
Though as this is an old thread, that may not have been true at the time of the original posts.
For non-caviliers, in addition to learning the tricks for Combat Training under the Handle Animal skill, the mount isn't spooked in combat.
Mounts in Combat: Horses, ponies, and riding dogs can serve readily as combat steeds. Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full-round action, and you can't do anything else until your next turn.
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Gaining nothing is not that great for a 4th level 'advancement'. Also, when you say "For non-caviliers, in addition to learning the tricks for Combat Training under the Handle Animal skill," do you mean that the mount gain the 6 tricks listed under 'Combat Training' as bonus tricks above and beyond their usual Animal Companion tricks? (i.e. because if you end up with a mount with 13+ tricks that advancement 'may' start to look good, now that we have tons of tricks to choose from....)
Still, looks like it seriously bites for cavaliers... unless they get 'bonus 6 tricks' at level 1 from the get go by way of their mount 'always considered combat trained'.
To put it plainly: it really sound like the 'combat trained' wording we see in the cavalier's mount feature or by way of 4th level advancement refers to the removal of the regular horse's docile property... if you think about it, it makes sense since the horse animal companion came with a 'secondary attack' blurb to kinda reflect that. I always assumed the 4th level advancement was to remove docile.