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You can see more details about my build by clicking my name.
Short version:
I'm a melee-oriented cleric of Iomedae in PFS. Domains are Glory(Heroism) and Sun. What you won't see in my stats is that I typically have the highest to-hit at the table, due to pretty much always having heroism running (either pre-cast or activated as a swift action for up to 9 rounds per day) and usually spending round 1 casting divine favor which, alongside the Fate's Favored and Divine Warrior traits, gives me +4 to hit and +5 damage.
I also usually have the highest AC at the table, currently at 31 (unbuffed).
My damage, however, is a bit mediocre; after that round-1 buff, I'm attacking (one-handed) at about +17/+12 to hit for 1d8+10 damage.
Having just hit 9th level, I'm considering taking Power Attack. One-handed, that would take me to +15/+10 for 1d8+14. Two-handed (I use a buckler), that becomes +14/+9 for 1d8+18, but I also lose 4 points of AC for the round.
What do you think? Should I pick up Power Attack? I don't really know what a good benchmark is for to-hits, so I don't know if -2/+4 is a good trade or not.
Or is there some other feat I should be taking instead?
Thanks!
Your traits, heroism, and divine favour are more than making up for your 3/4 BAB. So you could also say that you're above a fighter with weapon training too.
Take Power Attack and just stop using it vs anything you have trouble hitting like everyone else.
If you choose to go two handed you may be better off with a reach weapon and enlarge person so you can cast in turn and AoO as the monsters move in. It's better action economy unless you want to full attack but your 3/4 BAB will always leave you behind in the number of attacks you'll have. Vital Strike tree would make up for the fewer full attacks with this tactic.
I don't think Divine Warrior gives a bonus off of divine favor, because it doesn't target your weapon. You'd need align weapon or something like that to get it.
But I think Power Attack is your best bet.
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I don't think Divine Warrior gives a bonus off of divine favor, because it doesn't target your weapon. You'd need align weapon or something like that to get it.
It doesn't need to target a weapon, it needs to affect weapons. Note that the trait has me choose one of the affected weapons; that would be nonsense if it only worked on spells that target a single weapon.
@stuart haffenden: What's a benchmark to-hit for a fighter at 9th level?
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As a player of both a battle cleric and fighter in PFS (albeit at much lower levels) I would say that Power Attack is a must for a melee character.
A vanilla fighter by level 9 should be at least at +15 to hit with his main weapon on the first attack. This assumes 18 STR (I like to start w/ 16 then add at levels 4 and 8, or get a belt).
With +4 from ability, +9 BAB, +1 weapon focus and +1 weapon training you get +15. There are plenty of ways to bump this, I'm sure. I've often thought that if your "main" + to hit is twice your level at higher levels, you're doing quite well.
Sorry to jump in, stuart. If you have other information, I would bow to anyone with greater experience.
For a 9th level fighter? Around +15 barring weapon focus and weapon training. Most will have a +17 with weapon focus and weapon training. They may even have their gloves by this point making it +19.
As for more damage?
Ditch the shield and two hand that sucker with power attack.
You lose about 4 ac but that alone will net you around 11 more damage nearly doubling the amount you have now without including buffs. A reach weapon may be an okay choice but I find it not so great without combat reflexes to really exploit it.
Also don't forget you are a caster. Spellstoring on your weapon next to a Hold Person or Bestow Curse can often end a fight regardless of how much damage you are actually doing so keep that in mind.
In terms of buffing try to get certain buffs out of the way before a fight starts. Heroism (the buff not the aura) lasts ten minutes per level. With an extend rod on you that's almost two and a half hours. This saves you some time there. You also have Greater Magic weapon which lasts an hour per level and triggers your trait irrefutably. With these two buffs going you're looking at a fair amount of to hit before fights even start. This gives you a chance to drop things like Blessing of Fervor, Prayer or your favorite Divine Power (which is strictly superior to divine favor unless you're getting it quickened)
+1 to losing the buckler, two-handing the sword and using power attack judiciously.
Have you played this character already at level 2 or above? I see 5 traits and I can't figure out how you could get that many.
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For a 9th level fighter? Around +15 barring weapon focus and weapon training. Most will have a +17 with weapon focus and weapon training. They may even have their gloves by this point making it +19.
Hm, which after Power Attack would be +14 or +16 with the gloves. Dang, that's right about where I am! Nice!
As for more damage?
Ditch the shield and two hand that sucker with power attack.
You lose about 4 ac but that alone will net you around 11 more damage nearly doubling the amount you have now without including buffs.
I'm not following that math. Right now, my typical damage bonus is +10. With one-handed Power Attack, it's +14. With two-handed Power Attack, I'm counting +18. That's a +8 increase over my current damage, and only +4 over one-handed Power Attack. Did I miss something?
Also don't forget you are a caster. Spellstoring on your weapon next to a Hold Person or Bestow Curse can often end a fight regardless of how much damage you are actually doing so keep that in mind.
Yes, but my AC consumes a lot of wealth, so spellstoring won't come any time soon. (But I didn't take a point of damage in The Hellknight's Feast!) I'm actually seriously considering getting a plain-Jane +3 weapon to bypass silver/cold iron (and one of my domain spells can add Good if necessary).
In terms of buffing try to get certain buffs out of the way before a fight starts. Heroism (the buff not the aura) lasts ten minutes per level.
Yep, that's my "at the door" buff. :D The aura fills in any "unexpected" fights.
You also have Greater Magic weapon which lasts an hour per level and triggers your trait irrefutably.
Even lasting 9 hours, netting a +1/+2 on my already +1 longsword seems like a poor use of a spell of such high level (though I could see it being better at much higher levels when 4th-level spells are in less demand). But for now, totally not worth it.
Divine Power (which is strictly superior to divine favor unless you're getting it quickened)
Pfft, it's not strictly better. It's a round shorter in duration (for now), and costs a much higher spell slot. Again, maybe at higher levels that's less of a difference, but when it's my second-highest spell level? Yeah, sorry, not worth it compared to what else I could be doing.
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+1 to losing the buckler, two-handing the sword and using power attack judiciously.
I wouldn't have to ditch the buckler entirely; I can switch back and forth between one-hand and two-hand attacks on a round-by-round basis.
Have you played this character already at level 2 or above? I see 5 traits and I can't figure out how you could get that many.
I'm asking for advice on my 9th-level feat and you're wondering whether I've played at 2nd or higher yet? ;)
Two traits at character creation.
Two traits from taking the Additional Traits feat.
One trait from an Extra Trait boon I got at a local convention.
:D
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I'm actually seriously considering getting a plain-Jane +3 weapon to bypass silver/cold iron (and one of my domain spells can add Good if necessary).
You might consider the Grayflame +1 weapon buff instead. It uses a swift action and burns a Channel to cause your weapon to be +1 enhancement more and +1d6 damage. That would be +3.5 damage over and above a straight +3 weapon and still be the same to hit and punch thru silver/cold iron resistances.
As a positive channeler, I'd only be able to bypass silver DR, not cold iron. Also, I only have 3 channels per day. :/
What's your strength?
I'm not following that math. Right now, my typical damage bonus is +10. With one-handed Power Attack, it's +14. With two-handed Power Attack, I'm counting +18. That's a +8 increase over my current damage, and only +4 over one-handed Power Attack. Did I miss something
Actually you're correct. I figured a higher bab than you actually had.
Also don't knock divine power. You're jsut reading bonuses. I'm reading haste, temporary hp and bonuses to strength based checks. Extra attacks will net you extra damage. The only argument against that would be haste at every table.
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Also don't knock divine power. You're jsut reading bonuses. I'm reading haste, temporary hp and bonuses to strength based checks. Extra attacks will net you extra damage. The only argument against that would be haste at every table.
Not knocking it, just pointing out that "strictly better" is incorrect. It's situationally better. The value of 9THP is debatable when I usually have the highest AC at the table and have three different 5-point energy resistances. The value of the extra attack depends on me getting full-attacks, which is not a guarantee. And when was the last time you needed to make a STR-based check that wasn't an attack in the heat of combat?
Realistically, the difference between power and favor is 9THP and maybe a couple of extra attacks, if I get some full-attacks off.
Is that better? Of course.
Is it better enough to warrant using one of my very limited supply of higher-level spell slots instead of one of my not-good-for-much-else firsties? Heck no.
Is it better enough to warrant using one of my very limited supply of higher-level spell slots instead of one of my not-good-for-much-else firsties? Heck no.
Well, that's a question of opinion. I would like to point out that no matter how high your ac or resistances are you are not immune to damage.
And even if you don't value it that much you still have righteous might and blessing of fervor.
Point being in all this is that if you want more damage you have to take some honest risks. Using your lowest level spells and keeping your shield is wonderfully conservative but won't exactly slay your enemies. Power attack can certainly help you but it's just a bandage on the problem of being a support cleric playing at battle.
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Remember that my goal here is not "help me completely re-work this character into a DPR machine". It's "help me decide on a feat; is Power Attack worthwhile?"
Given what I'm hearing about to-hit benchmarks, it sounds like yes, Power Attack is very nearly "free damage". I'm okay with doing 1d8+14 damage; I just didn't know if it was worth a feat to go from +10 to +14. Seems like it probably is.
Remember that my goal here is not "help me completely re-work this character into a DPR machine". It's "help me decide on a feat; is Power Attack worthwhile?"
It's not really re-work. Merely a talk about spell selection and about your complaint over not doing as much damage as you want.
If 4 extra damage satisfies you than by all means ignore me. I'm simply pointing out ways to get more while losing relatively little. Obviously you wouldn't have gotten this far if what you do didn't work for you. :)
So as a general benchmark you're looking at 1.5x level for your to hit bonus. But as others have said this will vary based on point buy, wealth per level and class.
Your figures are pretty good as far as I'm concerned.
With AC you should aim for 20 + level for front line. Again this will vary based on class. As a cleric you can get away with a slightly lower AC. If you dump the shield you're looking at 27 which is fine.
For saves, aim for your level.
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Being second-string on DPR was always the plan. :)
But yeah, unless someone has another feat idea that I've overlooked (metamagic, perhaps?) then gaining +4 damage, and another +4 if it seems more important than AC that round, while still having competitive accuracy, seems like a good use of a feat.
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As a positive channeler, I'd only be able to bypass silver DR, not cold iron. Also, I only have 3 channels per day. :/As a +3 weapon with Grayflame, you'd bypass Silver and Cold Iron.
Typically, "fake" enhancement bonuses don't count for DR other than magic.
With only 3 channels per day, that's still 3 battles per day. You aren't likely channeling in combat much anyways without Selective Channel. And if you are using a standard action to group heal in combat, then mass cure spells are always available.
It's true I don't usually channel to heal. However, I add my level to channeled energy when harming undead, with a +2 to the DC, and they can't add their channel resistance. Nice to have a little back-pocket option when the wraiths and advanced mohrgs come out. ;)
If all your question was is whether Power Attack is a good feat for you to take, then yes, it is very good for a melee cleric.
So it seems. :)
Your hitpoints should be 77 (8 @ 1st + 8x5 + 18 from CON + 9 from feat). That was probably just a typo, but just in case...
Thanks, forgot to update when I leveled. (And it's 75, actually.)
You might consider retraining the Extra Trait feat in order to retrain a trait to pick up the trait that adds +1 to all luck bonuses. That might be very nice for you?
That would be Fate's Favored, which is in fact one of the traits I picked up with Additional Traits. Best trait for a melee cleric, boosting both divine favor and jingasa of the fortunate soldier. :D
As a cleric you can get away with a slightly lower AC.I don't understand this statement. How does being a cleric make AC less important? It's not like the baddies swing more softly when they target me.
You have non-provoking ways to heal yourself... you're a cleric.
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You have non-provoking ways to heal yourself
The only non-provoking way to heal myself is channeling, which:
1) Will also heal the enemy,2) Uses my turn, effectively giving the enemy a free attack against me,
3) Heals 5d6, or an average of 17.5 HP. That's about what I deal per hit.
Combining #2 and #3 means that the enemy is going to undo my healing if they hit on the same round, making the healing pointless at best. The only way I come out ahead with those numbers is if the enemy misses with all of its attacks.
Which actually means that trying to heal myself means AC is even MORE important, as I need to be missed for the healing to be worthwhile.
And even then, I can only do that 3/day, and there's still the issue of healing the enemy at the same time.
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Quicken Spell - it can save you 1 round to boot strap your melee attacking cleric, that 1 round can equal a lot of damage potential, it would take a truely dedicated melee cleric to go this path at 9th tho
I did think about this, for quickening my divine favor.
Sacred Summons - as Lawful Good, you can summon 1d3 hound archons as a 5th level spell as a standard action, that can be a lot of damage as well as a lot of damage prevention
Now there's an interesting idea. Of course, to get value out of it, I've got to prepare some summon spells, which would require re-working some of my usual spell preparations. Also slows the table a bit...
Hm, decisions...
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which would require re-working some of my usual spell preparationsFor curiosity's sake, do you have your list of usual spells handy to post?
Going from memory, could be a little off...
1st-level (5+1)
3x Divine Favor
2x Liberating Command
D: Shield of Faith
2nd-level (5+1)
2x Pilfering Hand
2x Burst of Radiance
1x Empty Slot
D: Bless Weapon
3rd-level (4+1)
1x Stone Shape
1x Invisibility Purge
1x Resist Energy, Communal
1x Empty Slot
D: Heroism
4th-level (3+1)
1x Air Walk
1x Dismissal
1x Empty Slot
D: Holy Smite
5th-level (1+1)
1x ????????? (Haven't played at 9th level yet, haven't decided)
D: Flame Strike
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1. Take Combat Reflexes, buy a DEX belt upgrade and a longspear.
What kind of an Iomedaen uses a longspear? Besides, I've spent over 9k on that +3 buckler; I might sometimes two-hand my sword a round at a time, but I'm not ditching it altogether.
2. Retrain Additional Traits to Power Attack. (Divine Warrior and River Rat aren't contributing much at this point.)
Additional Traits was for Divine Warrior and Fate's Favored. River Rat, sadly, can't be retrained due to being taken normally. :(
3. Cast Righteous Might and make AoOs during enemy movement.
Sounds great, except for the above issues. ;)
I don't think Divine Warrior gives a bonus off of divine favor, because it doesn't target your weapon. You'd need align weapon or something like that to get it.
But I think Power Attack is your best bet.
+1 to both. Divine Favour does not affect your weapon, it affects you.
Edit: Hm. Maybe you are right after all about the trait Thomas.
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Power Attack is a very worthwhile feat for any melee (one handing or two-handing), and with a buckler you can easily decide round to round whether the extra ac or extra damage is more valuable, adds to the versatility of your character. If you don't have a +strength belt, you might want to consider prepping one or more bull's strengths, looks like you have 1 open 2nd level spell (try and cast before a fight starts, lasts minutes per level, sometimes you can get more than one fight out of it, my melee cleric relies on bull's str, even throughout level 11, as I bought a +con belt he doesn't have nearly the AC you do). Righteous Might is a great 5th level melee cleric buff spell, I am also a fan of Life Bubble as a 5th level spell.
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Power Attack is a very worthwhile feat for any melee (one handing or two-handing), and with a buckler you can easily decide round to round whether the extra ac or extra damage is more valuable, adds to the versatility of your character. If you don't have a +strength belt, you might want to consider prepping one or more bull's strengths, looks like you have 1 open 2nd level spell (try and cast before a fight starts, lasts minutes per level, sometimes you can get more than one fight out of it, my melee cleric relies on bull's str, even throughout level 11, as I bought a +con belt he doesn't have nearly the AC you do). Righteous Might is a great 5th level melee cleric buff spell, I am also a fan of Life Bubble as a 5th level spell.
Yeah, it's looking like Power Attack is the winner at this point. :)
I already have a +2 STR belt, so using a 2nd-level slot on +1/+1 just doesn't seem worthwhile (especially compared to a 1st-level spell giving +4/+5).
For my one and only (non-domain) 5th-level spell, I'm seriously considering plane shift. It can be an emergency "escape plan" in a pinch, but more to the point it can get rid of big beasties. That is, my toughest fights are against enormous single-enemy animal/vermin encounters. An APL+3 single monster who's entirely focused on trading blows is typically about the only thing with a high enough attack bonus to take me down in just a couple of rounds, they're immune to pilfering hand, they're neutral-aligned and therefore laugh off holy smite, they don't rely on targeting my awesome cleric saves, and they've got way too many hit points for me to hack through at my DPR. Basically, it's the one type of fight where none of my strengths matter that much. But plane shift gives me a will-based answer that actually works on big, neutral, potentially mindless beasties of every sort.
Basically, it plugs the last hole, so it's looking pretty appealing.
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The kind that ties a longsword to a 10' pole.1. Take Combat Reflexes, buy a DEX belt upgrade and a longspear.What kind of an Iomedaen uses a longspear?
Besides, I've spent over 9k on that +3 buckler
At about what tier is 4,500gp approximately equal to one adventure's loot?
(Otherwise, have your next character spend it on a quickdraw light shield rather than a buckler. Unsung Quick Draw; one of the best feats in the game that almost nobody takes.)
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What is alignment subtype ?
Alignment subtype is when one or more alignment words (like "good" or "chaotic" or whatever) are in parentheses next to the creature type.
For instance, look at the type line for an Imp:
LE Tiny outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
The "LE" means his alignment is lawful evil. Then you have his size (Tiny), his type (outsider), and then you have a list of his subtypes: devil, evil, extraplanar, and lawful. The "evil" and "lawful" in that parenthetical list are his "alignment subtypes".