Heightened Spell + Spontaneous Casting + Magical Lineage

[DiscOH]

I can Magical Lineage a 0 level spell, then prepare it in every spell slot with heightened Spell.

Can I then use the Spontaneous Casting class ability (Druid for instance) to cast 1/2/3 level spells by sacrificing 0/1/2 level spell slots?

Why or why not?

Relevant Rules:

Spontaneous Casting:

A druid can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature's ally spell of the same level or lower.

Magical Lineage:

Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.

Heighten Spell:

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

[DiscOH]

Also Relevant

Wayang Spell Hunter has slightly different text than Magical Lineage

Wayang Spellhunter:

Benefit: When you use the chosen spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.

[Aelryinth]

No.

Heighten Spell only works out of the slot it is cast from. End of story. You can't reduce the cost of it. Do you see a +Cost modifier to it?

No, because there is none, therefore there is nothing to reduce.

A Heightened Spell is cast out of a specific slot. You can reduce the cost of +x metas, but not Heighten.

==Aelryinth

[DiscOH]

So in your opinion heighten spell makes the effective spell level the actual spell level?

A Quickened (+4) Tenebrous (+1) Echoing (+3) Heightened (+0) Command ignores Greater Spell Immunity?

When I read it I get the feeling that its a variable increase like Reach Spells.

[Quantum Steve]

Heighten doesn't add to the effective spell level like other metamagics so there's nothing to reduce. Heighten actually changes the level of the spell.

If you were describing a Quickened Magic Missile, Heightened to 4th level, Quickened (+4) Heightened (+3) Magic Missile is a poor way to describe it; rather Quickened (+4) Heightened (4th) Magic Missile.

[Morris Chan]

That's right if u cast heightened magic missile and you want it to be + 3 DC you need to use 4th level spell if u add quicken add another +3 spell level and use a 7th level spell slot if u have magical linage trait

[ShadowcatX]

You don't have 0 level slots. You have a specific number of cantrips that you can cast per day.

That said, I agree that this wouldn't work for the reasons mentioned previously.

[DiscOH]

Are we saying that heighten doesn't work with Magical Lineage? Or that magical lineage negates the effects of heighten?

Heighten Spell is pretty clear that it increases the level of the spell

Quote:

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

All Magical Lineage needs is a level increase of one. Which is clearly happening in the feat.

Now I could somewhat understand the argument about Magical Lineage reducing the effectiveness of Spontaneous Casting. Neither ability is very well written. But as far as Heighten Spell not being a legitimate target for Magical Lineage? Somebody has to explain how the text supports this to me.

In either case, wayang spellhunter as written very clearly works for what I'm trying to accomplish.

[Mojorat]

The part your overlooking is the game has it hard coded that a 4 th level spell /must/ be cast in a lvl 4 or higher slot. Nothing in the game changes this. The other problem is reading the rules in a vaccume free of common sense never works.

I also suggest you check the previous threads explaining why the combination of these traits don't work like you think they do.

[Aelryinth]

What you are reading is the difference between a Metacost modifier and Heighten spell.

Magical lineage reduces the metacost, i.e. that +1 to +4 ticker you see on metamagic feats.

Except, that is, for Heighten.

Heighten does not have a cost. Go look at it. There's nothing for Magical Lineage to reduce. You change the level of the spell so it's effectively a higher level spell. There's no price to reduce or cheapen or anything. You just change the base slot.

==Aelryinth

[DiscOH]

Aelryinth wrote:

What you are reading is the difference between a Metacost modifier and Heighten spell.

Magical lineage reduces the metacost, i.e. that +1 to +4 ticker you see on metamagic feats.

Except, that is, for Heighten.

Heighten does not have a cost. Go look at it. There's nothing for Magical Lineage to reduce. You change the level of the spell so it's effectively a higher level spell. There's no price to reduce or cheapen or anything. You just change the base slot.

==Aelryinth

I feel like we're not getting anywhere.

I've posted the description twice and here you tell me to go read it.

Magical Lineage doesn't reduce the metacost. It reduces the preparation level of any spell augmented by metamagic. If it said, "Reduce the total level adjustment from metamagic by 1" you might have an argument.

It doesn't say that.

Please refer to the abilities that I've posted for your convenience. Further, please reference wayang spell hunter, in post 2.

[ShoulderPatch]

Magical Lineage requires the metamagic to have added a spell level.

Heighten Spell does NOT add spell levels.

It changes the base level.

Exp
Level 1 Spell, add Piercing Spell, becomes Level 2
"1 + 1 = 2"
Magical Lineage CAN effect that, it subtracts from the +1

Heighten Spell, per several discussions that have already happened on this that Ael mentioned earlier [Edit: My mistake, that was Mojorat], does not work like that.

Level 1 Spell does not add Heighten, it is modified by it
It is not Spell Level plus X
The X IS the new Spell Level
There is no added spell level for magical lineage to subtract.

Exp
Level 1 Spell, Heightened to 4
Is NOT "1 + X" where X is 3
It IS just "X", where X is 4
There is no added spell level for Magical Lineage to act upon

[DiscOH]

So your hang up is on the word "add" and the "+" sign not being in heighten spell?

Would you argue that reach spells aren't affected by magical lineage either?

Reach Spell

Quote:

Level Increase: Special. A reach spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level for each increase in range category. For example, a spell with a range of touch increased to long range uses up a spell slot three levels higher.

Reach, like heighten, doesn't use the "+" sign anywhere in its text (and the word "add" never is mentioned in any metamagic feat). I'm having trouble understanding what separates this spell from the others in your mind.

As for other threads that have gone over this, I've been searching for a while, none of them that I've yet seen say this interaction doesn't work. Please provide a link if you know otherwise.

[Quantum Steve]

DiscOH wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding what separates this spell from the others in your mind.

Heighten Spell wrote:

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Heighten Spell is unlike other metamagic feats. I'm having trouble understanding what you're not getting.

Other metamagic feats [add to/increase/cause to be higher] the spell slot of the spell.

Heighten Spell actually changes the level of the spell.

They are different.

[bbangerter]

ShoulderPatch wrote:

Magical Lineage requires the metamagic to have added a spell level.

Heighten Spell does NOT add spell levels.

It changes the base level.

Exp
Level 1 Spell, add Piercing Spell, becomes Level 2
"1 + 1 = 2"
Magical Lineage CAN effect that, it subtracts from the +1

Heighten Spell, per several discussions that have already happened on this that Ael mentioned earlier [Edit: My mistake, that was Mojorat], does not work like that.

Level 1 Spell does not add Heighten, it is modified by it
It is not Spell Level plus X
The X IS the new Spell Level
There is no added spell level for magical lineage to subtract.

Exp
Level 1 Spell, Heightened to 4
Is NOT "1 + X" where X is 3
It IS just "X", where X is 4
There is no added spell level for Magical Lineage to act upon

Actually, technically other metamagic spells increase the spell slot level, not a spells level. Heighten increases both a spells level and the spell slot level. From a purist legalistic reading magical lineage only works with heighten spell "...that add at least 1 level to the spell..." as it is the only metamagic feat that increases a spells level.

All other metamagics have something like the following "An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level."

This is clearly not the intent, but it goes back to a long discussion I had with ShadowcatX on these boards a few months back about how spell level and spell slot level are often used interchangeably, which leads to several ambiguous rules interactions.

There is a FAQ Request for clarification on some of these issues.

If you believe the intent of magical lineage is to reduce the spell slot required for a spell (which I'm pretty sure is how everyone plays it), then the question is, does heighten spell increase the spell slot level used? With the answer being, yes of course it does. So magical lineage applies.

From a balance perspective this isn't an issue either. Spell focus feat applies +1 to the DC of saving throws for all spells in a school (which is half a dozen or more spells per spell level). Magical lineage with heighten grants that to a single spell (and also makes that spell slightly harder to dispel, has some potential interactions with darkness vs light spells). But you've spent a trait and a feat to get that for a single spell.