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So, I've seen a couple situations that by RAW these are attainable, but they don't feel RAI. There are a few people bringing up various circumstances where AC/Familiars surpass total character level, I'll point out a few of those. But here is the question:
By stacking bonuses from various sources, will the effective level of any one animal companion, familiar, or cohort exceed the total character level of it's master, or is there a cap at total character level?
Example with familiar:
1. Wizard with Eldritch Heritage: Arcane feat. The bloodline that is granted by the feat (at -3 total character level) specifically states that levels from the sorceress bloodline stack with any wizard levels. Level 20 wizard can have a level 37 familiar.
Examples with animal companion:
1. Nature Oracle with Bonded Mount using the Elf's favored class bonus (+1/2 level to one oracle revelation). A level 20 oracle can have a mount with 30 effective druid levels (EDL) (note: limited to a mount, aka horse, dog, riding wolf, camel etc...)
2. 4 levels cavalier, horse master feat, and any class that grants animal companion levels. It will give your total character level in addition to the other classes levels to your animal companion (Must be a mount). So, a level 20 character (16 druid, 4 cavalier) will have 36 EDLs in his mount.
(The horse master feat is debatable, as the language used is in "set" terms for both the benefits and normal sections of reading. This confuses how cavalier levels normally stack with EDLs of other classes AND how the horse master feat stacks with EDLs of other classes. It is the opinion of the author that they stack in both cases).
RAW, there may be other circumstances, these are but a few.
Cohorts are specifically capped. No need to include them.
Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
Even though wizard levels stack with character levels, you don't get to double-count. You have twenty levels as a level 20 character, and no feat changes that, so even if you had a hypothetical "your wizard levels stack with your wizard levels for yadda yadda" feat, that clause would be meaningless.
Horse Master overrides anything else due to its flat "use your character level" language. But I can see how someone might apply "you decide the order" philosophy to say otherwise. Hmm.
I agree, there should be a blanket animal companion rule that states that a character's effective druid level can never exceed her character level.
there should be a blanket animal companion rule that states that a character's effective druid level can never exceed her character level.
Your proposed rule goes against the direct intent of Oracle Favored Class Bonus, which is inherently meant to raise the level of an ability above what a full-class oracle of your level would normally have. Such a rule is not needed to prevent "counting the same level twice via multiple means" which is "counting twice" not "stacking", and if the ability only says to "stack different sources", then you shouldn't double count the same level(s). If the ability does say to double count if you have multiple means to count said level, then that is the explicit intent of the ability, albeit I have never seen such an ability and don't expect one to be published.
I can fully understand why some might not believe it 100% clear that stacking =/= double counting via multiple means, but unclearness on that topic is no reason to start imposing rules which directly sabotage the clear intent of other abilities by imposing some cap on AC, it just means a FAQ should be issued on stacking vs. double counting. It seems practically certain that if Paizo issues a FAQ for this topic, the 'double counting' combos will not be validated, and they will issue a clarification to the effect of 'stacking =/= double counting' rather than start tacking on new rules limitations out of the blue that somehow accomodate the range of existing and future rules interacting in this manner.
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So,
Familiar example: This does not work, as you believe it does.
Animal Companion Example 1: This is exactly what the favored class bonus is supposed to do, as it will put any ability that the PC chooses above their level, no matter what.
Animal Example 2: This doesn't even push the companion past ECL, and works as intended.
In short, nothing wrong is happening, and you just read a few abilities wrong.
No need for FAQ.
I disagree that it is not RAI. There are numerous places where they could have directly implied or stated it, and did not.
Not to mention that the Oracle favored class bonus essentially becomes useless if that was the intention.
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Animal ally, bonded mount, hunt master feat, ring of revelation (bonded mount), favored class bonus
19th level mount at level 8
if we remove animal ally, its 14th level companion at 8.
there are specifically feats and abilities to go above your level. its the things that override it back down to your level (horse lord feat).
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I really didn't want this to turn into a whole "this example works and this one doesn't" simply because of how many possible examples that could exist. I listed but a few to show that there are plausible situations where a character can walk in with a very powerful familiar that out shines it's master.
Thanks for the cohorts, I've never allowed them, never played in a game with them, so I've never read the rules for them.
There is a valid point brought up though, perhaps it is intended for animal companions and familiars to be able to exceed character levels. An FAQ addressing the original question would clear that up.
For instance, the racial bonus to oracles affects many revelations. They might not have thought about this one case of "A 20 HD oracle with a 24 HD mount" (And yes, that is what the graph would be extended to, continue the HD pattern). Is this intended? Another character that can be more powerful than yourself for a revelation and your favored class bonuses? If it is, I retract this thread :).
Well, take as an example the Huntmaster feat:
Prerequisites: Handle Animal 1 rank; either the animal companion, divine bond (mount), or mount class feature; human.
Benefit: If you have the animal companion class feature, pick one of the following types of animal companions that this feat affects: bird, dog, small cat, or horse. If you have the divine bond (mount) or mount class feature, this feat always affects horses. You gain a +2 bonus on Handle Animal and Knowledge (nature) checks with creatures of that type of animal. Furthermore, you are treated as one level higher when determining the abilities of your animal companion or mount, as long as it is of the chosen type.
It's possible to meet the requirements of the feat at 1st level; the feat specifically states that you are treated as one level higher for determining your companion's abilities (effectively making it one level higher than you), without putting a cap on it.
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Hmmm... I can see that would be intended for that feat. A +1 bonus doesn't hurt, but a +16 would be a bit out scope for intention. Though I have to wonder, who published that feat?
I was short sighted, I apologize, rather than saying that it should be that you cannot surpass your character level, there should be individual fixes to any brakes in the system.
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So,
Familiar example: This does not work, as you believe it does.
Animal Companion Example 1: This is exactly what the favored class bonus is supposed to do, as it will put any ability that the PC chooses above their level, no matter what.
Animal Example 2: This doesn't even push the companion past ECL, and works as intended.
In short, nothing wrong is happening, and you just read a few abilities wrong.
No need for FAQ.
I concur with all of this. Don't let a few pedantic min-max forum posts lead you to believe otherwise.
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But the question is whether you are stacking from the same source.
Take the Ranger who has taken Animal Ally at 3rd level, receives Hunters Bond at 4th and selects animal companion, then takes the Huntmaster feat.
Animal Ally gives you an AC at character level -3, and states it stacks if you later receive an AC from another source.
Hunters Bond give an AC at Ranger class level -3.
Huntmaster gives you a +1 level to existing AC.
Character level and class level are differently defined game terms (though they happen to be equal in this example), are you stacking the same source or different sources?
At 20th level, its a difference between 18 and 35 level animal companion. Or possibly 20 level with the proposed rule.
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Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).
So in example one, your "op" wizard got spell focus spellcraft (not really a necessary thing from optimization standpoint) to pick Eldritch heritage arcane.... to simply add ac to his animal companion and intelligence, or to access those progressions sooner....
so two spells to get a lvl 37 familiar at lvl 20... may seem wierd, but meh whatever? a one feat expenditure for imp familiar will prove quite a bit more useful at lvl 20 than a horsed up familiar who still isn't relevant in combat...