Hi! I've looked for an answer to this fairly thoroughly and come up with bupkis, so I could you your guys help!
My question is whether you can use the rounds of inspire courage granted by the evangelist cleric archetype for the rounds of bardic performance used up by the battle dance ability of the dervish of dawn bard archetype.
The rules for the evangelist ability are listed here:
Sermonic Performance:
An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist’s performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level.
Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric’s channel energy damage at 7d6 points.
and the rules for battle dance here:
Battle Dance:
Dervishes of dawn are trained in the use of the Perform skill, especially dance, to create magical effects on himself. This works like bardic performance, except that the performances grant double their normal bonuses, but these bonuses only affect him. He does not need to be able to see or hear his own performance. Battle dancing is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, and effects that affect bardic performance, except that battle dancing does not benefit from the Lingering Performance feat or any other ability that allows a bardic performance to grant bonuses after it has ended. The benefits of battle dancing apply only when the bard is wearing light or no armor. Like bardic performance, battle dancing cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities.
Starting a battle dance is a move action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a battle dance from one effect to another requires the dervish to stop the previous performance and start the new one as a move action. Like a bard, a dervish of dawn's performance ends immediately if he is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round. A dervish of dawn cannot perform more than one battle dance at a time.
At 10th level, the dervish can start a battle dance as a swift action instead of a move action.
When a dervish of dawn uses the inspire courage, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, these performance types only provide benefit to the dervish himself. All other types of bardic performance work normally (affecting the bard and his allies, or the bard’s enemies, as appropriate).
This ability alters the standard bardic performance ability.
The rules for bardic performance are listed here:
Bardic Performance:
A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action.
Each bardic performance has audible components, visual components, or both.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and many such performances are language dependent (as noted in the description). A deaf bard has a 20% change to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with an audible component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to bardic performances with audible components.
If a bardic performance has a visual component, the targets must have line of sight to the bard for the performance to have any effect. A blind bard has a 50% chance to fail when attempting to use a bardic performance with a visual component. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Blind creatures are immune to bardic performances with visual components.
The original bardic performance rule states "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier." So bardic performance is a unique performance ability usable a specific number of rounds per day.
Battle dance on the other hand "works like bardic performance, except that the performances grant double their normal bonuses, but these bonuses only affect him.", which suggests only functional similarity, and a number of rounds this ability can be used is not listed.
Also relevant is the passage "When a dervish of dawn uses the inspire courage, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, these performance types only provide benefit to the dervish himself.", suggesting that it is a separate ability from the rounds of bardic performance one currently has, and that in order to use rounds of battle dance one uses up one's bardic performance rounds "as battle dances" in order to activate the battle dance performance ability.
So battle dance can be activated by using up rounds of bardic performances "as battle dances", this leaves us with only the question of whether sermonic performance rounds function like bardic performance rounds for the purpose of interacting with the performance ability battle dance.
For sermonic performance it says "This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist’s performance skill.". What I see as relevant is obviously first the statement "is similar in all respects to bardic performance", but this does not tell us about interactions. As far as interactions go, the statement "similar in all respects" includes "interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes". This means that the term similarity in "similar in all respects" extends to giving it the same interactions as bardic performance with some other game elements.
So sermonic performance is similar "in all respects" and certain interactions are noted specifically. Are these the only interactions? I would think "in all respects" would mean that they are not the only interactions.
I think the last relevant rule is this : "However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level". This literally says that he gains the inspire courage bardic performance, so I'm not really sure how to take that. I would think that this means that the intent of the above "similar in all respects" is to give it the same interactions, but I don't know about RAW.
What do you guys think? I would be really grateful for any help!
Also this would facilitate a dervish that is actually a cleric of Sarenrae, which would be pretty cool.
I also think it would be a reasonable character given that dervish dance is a damage focused ability and both being forced to take sarenrae, and restricted to one domain which, while awesome, does not add any damage or attack consistently. It gives you the option to fight with dex, but this will still do significantly less damage than a strength 2 handed cleric. All in all i think it would be a decent hybrid gish, pretty flexible but not overpowering. =)
Sermonic Performance is not like Bardic Performance in one, crucial aspect: it's not Bardic Performance. The Battle Dance alters the Dervish's Bardic Performance, it doesn't simply add a new use of Bardic Performance.
So I would conclude that you cannot use Sermonic Performance (which is a slightly different Bardic Performance) to "fuel" your Battle Dance (which is an altered Bardic Performance).
But sermonic performance doesn't have to be bardic performance in order to interact with other feats, abilities, etc the same way as bardic performance.
In fact its similarity includes "interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes". So feats, spells, and prestige classes that interact with bardic performance interact the same way with sermonic performance.
Battle dance isn't bardic performance either, it "works like bardic performance" and is "treated as bardic performance" with some important exceptions. One of these is that you don't just perform a battle dance, you have to use your current bardic performances "as battle dances". The battle dance performance you are doing will then "work like" and be "treated as" bardic performance for most purposes but you will derive different benefits from it if using certain performance types.
The question is whether sermonic performance rounds interact the same way with abilities as actual bardic performance rounds. They do for feats, spells, and prestige classes for sure, but do they for anything else?
sermonic performance is "similar in all respects", including the above interactions. Does paizo mean "including these interactions, etc, etc", or "including just these interactions". Given that they are explaining "similar in all respects" I would think that they mean "etc, etc", but I have no idea.
Also it goes on to say "However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level." If you want to be RAW about it literally says that an evangelist gains inspire courage, fascinate, countersong, etc, bardic performance types. I'm not sure what to make of that either.
If the rules were being consistent about designating sermonic performance as functionally but not interactively similar to bardic performance, they would say something like 'sermonic performance can only mimic the following types of bardic performance', not "gains...the following types of bardic performance".
Generally, if the abilities don't say they stack, they don't stack. For example, a cleric/paladin has a separate pool of channels for each class, and they don't stack for effectiveness.
I'm not asking whether rounds of bardic performance from a level of bard stack with rounds of sermonic performance from cleric levels, or if levels of bard and cleric would stack for the purpose of determining the bonuses granted by sermonic performance, I never thought they would.
To be very specific I am asking about how rounds of sermonic performance interact with abilities that have interactions with bardic performance. This determines whether or not you can use them with battle dance.
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Its not a situation where such interaction is out of left field either because the rule designates that sermonic perfromance does have the same interactions with regards to some character aspects.
sermonic performance "is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes)
Does this mean only "feats, spells, and prestige classes"? If so what else does "similar in all respects" not encompass?
Also there is the part that states that you gain certain bardic performances, which is probably just poor wording, but does not help with me understand what they were going for.
They're separate features, so no. They'd each get their own separate pool of performance uses, and they wouldn't cross-pollinate any more than the aforementioned cleric/paladin could use a use of paladin channeling to fuel her cleric channeling.
@blahpers
I actually don't think that this is the case. Battle dance rules state that it "works like" and is "treated as" bardic performance in terms of a number of things but do not state anything about a pool of performances.
It then goes on to say that you use "inspire courage, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances" when you use the ability. If it is at all relevant, this is how hero lab ends up representing the outcome too: bardic performance, a pool of bardic performances, and a separate battle dance ability.
@Pupsocket
Ya, it seems like it. As for the nay call, is this just because other features often can't interact or because you view the character as negative or imbalanced?
Also thanks for answers guys =). Is there any way to get a pfs call on this?
The term "pool of performance" is simply referring to the number of rounds of performance you get for having an ability. Both abilities give you such a number of uses per the rules for bardic performance. However, they're separate class features that don't say that levels from one count for the other. Therefore, they don't interact with each other. Each ability still counts as bardic performance for the purpose of things that mention bardic performance, but that in no way implies that you can simply share uses across abilities.
The lack of information is itself information. Again, see the CRB--there is no text stating how a cleric's channel ability combines with that of a paladin. Ergo, they don't combine at all. Hero Lab represents this correctly by giving them separate resource pools.
Battle dance does not have a number of performance rounds "pool", there is a number of rounds for bardic performance, a number for sermonic performance, and an independent battle dance move action.
As I was saying before, this is what would seem to be suggested from the lines of the battle dance rules that i quoted, you don't get a specified pool, and you use "bardic peformance types as battle dances".
if battle dance is an ability that uses bardic performance rounds, the question is whether sermonic performance is similar to bardic performance in terms of ability interactions.
