Countering Deeper Darkness in Society Play

[Rerednaw]

Premise:
Society Play.
Non-caster.
Random PUG with no casters.
Ranged, no AoE.
Non-Aasimar.
Level 4.

Fighting foes with Deeper Darkness as at-will. Underground, no ambient light.

How to counter this? Other than Oil of Daylight? Which is pretty spendy for level 4. Beats a raise dead and two restorations though I suppose.

I was hoping for a feat or at-will item? I suppose you could go with a horn of fog and then everyone fights blind :)

There was another thread on this, but did not address lower level Society play. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m7mb&page=2?How-should-PCs-deal-with-a-mon ster-that-has

[Jiggy]

First, remember that you can spend 2PP on that oil of daylight instead of spending 750gp.

That said, you have lots of options.

The most direct and powerful is of course to carry a potion of darkvision (which you should have by now, if you don't already have darkvision, to deal with non-deeper darkness) plus an oil of daylight. That's sort of the "gold standard", so don't expect other options to be as effective.

Your next best option is probably to employ smokesticks or other sources of smoke/fog. This won't let you see, but it'll at least bring the baddies down to (almost) your level. At the very least, you're unlikely to take a bunch of sneak attack damage.

Melee PCs have a few more options, like Blind-Fight or drawing the fight out of the radius of DD. But for a ranged PC, you've got to be able to see.

To be able to see, you're going to need daylight (probably with darkvision along with it). Or, if you're fortunate enough to adventure with a high-level PC caster later on, you might be able to get them to cast heightened continual flame for you (though it'll need to be at least 4th-level, meaning at least a 7th-level caster, and it must be a PC).

Sorry, but this is one of those things with very few real answers.

EDIT: As an aside, why the hell are you facing at-will deeper darkness at 4th level in Society play?

[bfobar]

Thats a CR 4 Dark stalker encounter.

I like the smoke stick idea. Nobody gets to see.

[Nefreet]

Scenarios like that are why my casters always prepare obscurring mist, or some other sort of "this makes both sides suck equally" spell.

But, the real problem sounds like your group just wasn't varied. That will kill parties in lots of situations. I was in a group once that almost got TPKed by Harpies, because nobody had ranged options to take them out.

[Cold Napalm]

Sleet storm...off a scroll...with UMD. Then echolocation off a scroll and cackle in glee as the GM has sad face? Yeah I know, costs more then the daylight option...but so much more fun. I had a GM smile when he dropped deeper darkness on me one as he thought he was gonna murder us "munchkins" when he realized none of us had daylight at the ready. Then I did that (not off scrolls mind you as I was a caster) and he just kinda sat there muttering as I murdered the BBEG.

Also wand of true strike if you know where to target works to negate the miss chance...and that +20 to hit is nothing to sneeze at either.

Oh and your characters should have massive UMD...no seriously.

[RainyDayNinja]

How were you reading scrolls in darkness?

[Cold Napalm]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

How were you reading scrolls in darkness?

As a ranged character, I would suspect outside the range of the darkness?!? What kind of ranged character stands 20 ft away from the BBEG that can rip them apart...aside from pistol based gunslingers.

I suppose one can learn braille and have scrolls written in braille as well...albeit not sure how legal that would be for PFS....

[Jiggy]

Cold Napalm wrote:

What kind of ranged character stands 20 ft away from the BBEG that can rip them apart

Deeper Darkness is a 60ft radius.

[Lotion]

You can spend 10 pp to upgrade your Wayfinder to a Dayfinder. Lets you cast daylight 1/day.

Pathfinder Society Field Guide p63 wrote:

Dayfinder (10 PP): Similar to a normal wayfinder in all external ways, this rare form of wayfinder differs in the potency of its light-emitting abilities. Once per day, the light generated by an active dayfinder replicates a daylight spell for a duration of 1 minute. These powerful tools against darkness are granted to experienced Pathfinders by generous venture-captains, and may only be purchased on the black market within the Society itself, and even then only by exchanging favors—never for gold.

[Rogue Eidolon]

I just wrote a brief in-character primer about a few of the ways to counter invisible opponents over on the BostonPFS website (Click here to see). I will probably get one for darkness up eventually, but some of the advice still applies.

[Joesi]

Regarding Darkness and Deeper darkness and light spells:

1. When a spell says "light spells counter [and|or] dispel Darkness spells of an equal or lower level", would that mean that the light spell suppresses ALL of the darkness's effects, or only the light-level lowering capability? The other ability Darkness has is to suppress lower level light spells— would that be blocked as well?
Jiggy seemed to imply that it wouldn't be blocked and that you'd also need darkvision, but that seems presumptuous?

2. Jiggy said that a continual flame would need to be heightened (level 4) to counter Deeper Darkness; why? Wouldn't a level 3 continual flame (be it non-heightened cleric spell, or heightened wizard spell) be enough since Deeper darkness is level 3?

3. Does the "light spells counter [and|or] dispel Darkness spells of an equal or lower level" 'rule' even apply universally/always? it's only mentioned on certain spells (some say "and", some say "or", although it doesn't seem to signify any difference), not in other parts of the game rules (as far as I know) or under the darkness spells.

[Sitri]

Earlier darkvision was suggested, I just wanted to note that will not help with deeper darkness. The See in Darkness ability is needed.

[thejeff]

Joesi wrote:

Regarding Darkness and Deeper darkness and light spells:

1. When a spell says "light spells counter [and|or] dispel Darkness spells of an equal or lower level", would that mean that the light spell suppresses ALL of the darkness's effects, or only the light-level lowering capability? The other ability Darkness has is to suppress lower level light spells— would that be blocked as well?
Jiggy seemed to imply that it wouldn't be blocked and that you'd also need darkvision, but that seems presumptuous?

2. Jiggy said that a continual flame would need to be heightened (level 4) to counter Deeper Darkness; why? Wouldn't a level 3 continual flame (be it non-heightened cleric spell, or heightened wizard spell) be enough since Deeper darkness is level 3?

3. Does the "light spells counter [and|or] dispel Darkness spells of an equal or lower level" 'rule' even apply universally/always? it's only mentioned on certain spells (some say "and", some say "or", although it doesn't seem to signify any difference), not in other parts of the game rules (as far as I know) or under the darkness spells.

The "counter and/or dispel" language refers specifically to using the spells to counter spell or dispel. When that is done the spell you are countering/dispelling is gone and yours does not take effect.

It does not refer to how the light levels from the various spells in the same area interact. The darkness spells all specify that light spells of equal or lower level do not raise the light level in the overlapping area of effect. That's why you need a heightened 4th level continual flame to overpower Deeper Darkness.

[Joesi]

I know that counter an dispel are separate things, it's just strange they sometimes use "counter AND dispel", since it has to be one OR the other.

Oh yeah I wasn't thinking about the "light spells of equal or lower level don't raise the light level" thing, but how does that interact with the other statement I mentioned?

If it was used as a dispel the darkness would obviously go away entirely and hence low level spell lights would work, but if it was only used to nullify/counter, it wouldn't actually nullify/counter the entirety of the spell temporarily (temporary dispel), but rather only increase the light level by 2 (from -2, to 0)?
That seems a bit weird/unfair, but I guess it follows the rules great without conflict. I guess that explains it.

[lemeres]

I notice that you say no aasimars, but not no tieflings.

This is important since a tiefling can get See in Darkness and thus they can see through even magical darkness. This is accomplished by taking the Fiend Sight Twice.

Obviously, it takes quite a bit of investment, and you can't do it well until mid PFS levels, but hey, it takes that long for deeper darkness at will to be a problem, doesn't it?

[thejeff]

Joesi wrote:

I know that counter an dispel are separate things, it's just strange they sometimes use "counter AND dispel", since it has to be one OR the other.

Oh yeah I wasn't thinking about the "light spells of equal or lower level don't raise the light level" thing, but how does that interact with the other statement I mentioned?

If it was used as a dispel the darkness would obviously go away entirely and hence low level spell lights would work, but if it was only used to nullify/counter, it wouldn't actually nullify/counter the entirety of the spell temporarily (temporary dispel), but rather only increase the light level by 2 (from -2, to 0)?
That seems a bit weird/unfair, but I guess it follows the rules great without conflict. I guess that explains it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question.

You can use a Light spell of equal or higher level to dispel an existing darkness spell. Both spells go away completely.
You can use a Light spell of equal or higher level to counterspell a darkness spell as it is being cast. Both spells go away completely.

The other situation is where you bring a light spell into the area of effect of a darkness spell. In that case the light spell has to be of higher level than the darkness spell to have any effect. Or, if the light spell is Daylight, both are negated, leaving you with the prevailing light conditions in the overlapping area.
That's why you need a 4th level continual flame item. Since it's an already burning item, you can't use it to counter or dispel and it has to be higher level to have any effect.

[Jiggy]

Using a light or darkness spell to counter/dispel its opposite is something you have to do at the time you cast your spell. See also bane, bless, cause fear, remove fear, haste, slow, etc, as well as this FAQ.

The thing about "magical light sources only increase the light level if they're of a higher level than darkness" is part of the darkness spell's normal effect, entirely separate from the whole counter/dispel thing.

So you can have a darkness effect already active, and also have a light effect already active, and bring them together... and then you read darkness and check your light source's level and determine what happens: if it's a mundane light source, it does not increase the light level but is not snuffed out. If it's a magical light source but not a higher level than the darkness effect, it does not increase the light level but is not dispelled. If it's a magical light source that is higher level than the darkness effect, then it increases the light level as normal but does not dispel the darkness effect.

Hope that clears things up a bit. :)