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Can anyone show me something that a Viking Fighter can do better than a straightforward Barbarian? I really want to like the archetype, but it seems fairly weak.
Intimidate that doesn't interfere with Attacks->Full Attacks->Swift Actions.
You don't even need Dazzling Display eventually because you can make as many Intimidates as you want.
(albeit that comes under GM judgement of how many Free Actions you can take)
Higher AC, with Shield bonus more or less swapping Armor Training bonus (at loss of Touch AC/CMD).
I could see somebody multi-classing Viking Fighter with Thunderstriker Barbarian (Buckler + 2H weapon),
though that's not even necessary since you're getting extra Feats you can put into Weapon Focus/Grt Weapon Focus to counter the normal penalty.
The bonus should also apply with Ring of Force Shield which you "wield as a Heavy Shield".
Full qualification for (and choice of Bonus Combat Feats/Rage Powers) for Fighter-only Feats.
Shatterspell is pseudo-Spell Sunder (without Superstitious forced Saves vs. friendly spells) for 10th level Dwarf (/Racial Heritage Human) Fighters,
which is technically compatable with a Fighter/Barb multiclass build at some point,
but with Viking you don't have to manage multiclassing, or delay either side substantially (just -3 on Rage) i.e. actually fits in PFS.
You get a higher number of total Bonus Feats/Rage Powers than a Barbarian does with Rage Powers,
albeit a Fighter2/BarbarianX build is the same there.
You can benefit from Fighter Favored Class bonuses.
At later levels you can get gauntlets that boost your weapon training by +2.
Uh... you COULD... if you still had Weapon Training with this Archetype.
Berserker: ...This ability replaces weapon training 1, 2, 3, and 4.
There is no such thing as Weapon Training 5...
Don't ask me why they didn't follow a consistent format when the Shield Defense Archetype Ability just says "replaces armor training" period while this one specifies the numbers even though they amount to the whole ability.
And I forgot...
You can't do it for the Rage Powers, but you can still use Feat Re-Training for actual Fighter Bonus Feats: Optimization for all levels.
kaisc, don't Duellist Gloves require having Weapon Training to do anything? The Viking gives up all Weapon and Armour Training. (Which makes it seem kinda weird to keep the standard capstones.)
That dwarf feat is an interesting idea. And I suppose fighter-only feats in general are a good thing to get access to. Are there any races that have fighter favoured class bonuses that aren't just limited CMD bonuses?
You should pretty easily be able to out-Grapple any Barbarian with this build,
with Favored Class bonus to Grapple and Weapon Focus/GWF to Grapple to counter/surpass any Rage delay,
not to mention (again) the 2 more total Feats/Rage Powers to actually get all the Grapple Feats.
Perhaps their STR Surge might be a bit higher, but your CMD would counter that difference ALL THE TIME.
(if the Barb tries a 2 level Fighter dip for 2 bonus Feats, they drop their Rage level advantage to only 1 level, and can't get GWF, so they can't actually stay ahead on that score by doing that)
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And as you note, even if it may seem 'wierd', they keep Armor Mastery and Weapon Mastery Capstones,
which don't actually have any relation to Armor or Weapon Training, so they work just fine.
The Intimidate is at minimum an effective bonus to-hit (and penalty to their Saves) that the Fighter is either wasting actions for, or wasting Featas/Rage Powers to lower the actions for. A 1 level dip in Thug means your Intimidates can achieve Frightened (not just Shaken) and that becomes a Swift Action at Char Level 11 (w/ 1 level dip... though Thug's Brutal Beating->Nauseated @2nd level is rather tempting). I think there's a few other options to do something similar, maybe a Bloodline Power?
That dwarf feat is an interesting idea. And I suppose fighter-only feats in general are a good thing to get access to. Are there any races that have fighter favoured class bonuses that aren't just limited CMD bonuses?
Half-orcs, dhampirs can get +2 to stabilize when dying as a FCB. A dhampir might even need it since they get -2 to CON. More or less useless though.
Drow get a bonus to a disarm or reposition, but only +1/3 per level (lame).
Hobgoblins get +1/2 to crit confirms, up to +4 total, which doesn't stack with critical focus. This is lame because if you are a fighter focusing on crits you'll want feats that have critical focus as a prereq. If this said that you're considered having the crit focus feat when you get +4, it would be good.
Kobolds get bonuses to damage to flanked or flat-footed opponents. Not terrible, especially if you add the dirty fighter trait and a level of rogue or three.
Strix get a bonus to their existing bonus against humans.
And that's about it.
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Also worth noting the is the feat Raging Throw, which gives bonuses to bull rush attempts, and allow you to deal damage equal to strength mod + con mod to targets that can't be pushed past a wall/their buddies.
Shield slam lets you make a bull-rush attempt every time you make a shield bash.
Seeing my plan here?
I thought it was ruled that abilities that subbed for class features still counted as those abilities for purposes of other powers and abilities?
It was just quoted on other threads. So all those 'sub for weapon training' variants that didn't have the same name are still considered 'weapon training' for the duelist gloves.
==Aelryinth
Okay, now that I like. More of a standard sword & board fighter build with a few rage powers salted in.
Aelryinth, that thread was talking about the archetypes that replace weapon training with what amounts to a more specific weapon training - spear training, or polearm training or the like. I can't imagine that a Viking's rage ability would work for the gloves.
I thought it was ruled that abilities that subbed for class features still counted as those abilities for purposes of other powers and abilities?
It was just quoted on other threads. So all those 'sub for weapon training' variants that didn't have the same name are still considered 'weapon training' for the duelist gloves.
==Aelryinth
I do not mean to intrude or impose, but would you please provide a link for that thread? That subject greatly interests me.
Here you go Rune. The design team created a new FAQ a few months back.
For Rage Powers that have level minimums, would a Viking have to treat his level as three lower? So that for powers that require level six before they can be taken, would the Viking have to be level nine?
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I don't see how berserker is at like weapon training.
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
@ZT: Yes, exactly.
I recommend Unexpected Strike as an 8th level Power (i.e. @11th level Viking) which holds it's own.
Particularly with the Shield Slam-Bullrush builds touted here, combined with Strength Surge,
that's a very solidly useful AoO if you don't want to get messed up by somebody/something.
Enlarge Person also recommended, Knockback lets you use any weapon including Reach Weapons.
@GD: It's not. Aelrynth was just over-simplifying the ruling, thus leading to the misunderstanding.
It allows you to play a Fighter that's a Viking without needing to be a Barbarian?
Theme > Class?
It allows you to play a Fighter that's a Viking without needing to be a Barbarian?
Theme > Class?
You can't have a Barbarian classed character that's a viking because...?
Hobgoblin Viking with Demoralizing Lash doing whip + shield. Trust me. :)
Those SO belong as mercenaries/military of Kaladay, the Tian country in Casmaron/bordering Castrovin and Ivory Sea.
Or even just associated with the trade route across the Crown of the World, as well as Kaoling.
You can't have a Barbarian classed character that's a viking because...?It allows you to play a Fighter that's a Viking without needing to be a Barbarian?
Theme > Class?
Seriously... Do you think nobody could play a Viking before this Archetype?
"Theme > Class"
This archetype is perfect for building a thunder and fang shoanti clan warrior.
I've done such a build just these days.
But it does have two problems:
1) Even if you have lots of feats as a human fighter it remains the question if thunder and fang is worth 4 feats.
2) It remains a purely martial build.
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I like the ability that it has to turtle up or go high damage from round to round. Between defensive with Combat Expertise, and full offensive with rage and Reckless Abandon, a level 12 viking can be looking at a difference of 9 AC!
The viking is a higher AC barbarian with more feats. It's pretty cool having so many feats and also getting access to Reckless Abandon, Ghost Rager, and Superstitious.
You don't even need Dazzling Display eventually because you can make as many Intimidates as you want.
(albeit that comes under GM judgement of how many Free Actions you can take)
Doesn't it say once per round for the free action intimidate?
Ah, so it does...
Although technically you call still Intimidate as a Swift Action, or even Move Action and Standard Action (on top of the Free Action).
Plus any of the Intimidate-on-Attack type abilities from Feats, etc.
The Swift/Free Action eventually is nice because you can be Full Attacking whatever schmuck you need to,
while debuffing some other target's Saves for your Caster ally independent of your attack target(s).
I hope I am not accused of thread-necromancing (again).
I just wanted to add that a Quick Draw Shield and the Quick Draw feat do wonders for this archetype. Donning and storing the shield are considered free actions, so you two-hand your sword/axe when you attack, then don the shield.
Two-weapon-fighting with a shield is inferior in my eyes because of all the feats needed.
With my build you take the classics: Weapon Focus & Spec. + Greater, Power Attack, Shield Focus + Greater, Dodge, Mobility and Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Combat Reflexes, Intimidating Prowess, + the Beast Totem Line, + whatever suits your needs.
At Level 16, my 25 Point buy build spotted an AC of 46, 48 when Raging,
Saves: 22/19/18, and and a full attack beginning with 32/34 when raging (Power Attack not included, but with items, Gold as per WBL).
Good traits: Sword Scion (if allowed), Defender of the Society (?), Fate's Favoured, Indomitable Will (everyone buys the Luck Stone sooner or later + the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier). Take a drawback to get three traits.
i see that this was a necro'd thread, but i find it surprising that nobody mentioned the one thing vikings can do that is literally impossible for barbarians- be lawful. i know that's in some ways less significant now with the bloodrager but the viking (and wild stalker ranger) made/make it possible to build a reasonable pally/barb or monk/barb. i know that there are other ways to do that (sacred servant of ragathiel makes a great rage-adin; and there's always the martial artist/barb) but the viking is an interesting and functional option.
That was mentioned in some other threads already. I read them all (almost I think) and I found it interesting that the combination with a Quickdraw Shield was never mentioned (maybe it was and I did overlook it).
For me it was important, because in play I need well rounded characters; As a fighter I have to invest in at least three save feats and a trait to feel somewhat, yeah, save. I play Pathfinder since it came out once every week, so I am not a theorycrafter, at least not only...