Hello the paizo community. Dean here. I've finished rolling and fleshing out a Musket Master gunslinger for my group. Just thought I'd get some advice and feedback. So.
Grayson Hawthorne
Level 1 Musket Master (gunslinger)
Human (+2 to Dex, Extra feat: Precise Shot)
HP: 12
AC: 17 (10 base, 2 armor, 1 shield, 4 dex)
Touch: 14
Flat: 13
Str: 13
Dex: 18 (+2 from Human)
Con: 15
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 09
Traits: Indomitable- +1 to will
Rich Parents- 900g to start (ammo is so expensive)
Feats: Gunsmith (class feat)
Rapid Reload, Musket (archetype feat)
Point Blank Shot- +1 atk/dmg with ranged within 30ft
Precise Shot- remove -4 penalty to shooting into melee
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven
Equipment:
Musket, Masterwork; 1d12dmg (+1 to atk rolls masterwork, +1 atk/dmg within 30ft from Pt Blank Shot)
Leather Armor, +2 AC
Buckler, +1 AC (there's no penalty with 2 handed firearm, correct?)
90 paper cartridges
20 black powder doses/bullets
Powder Horn
Backpack
Gunsmith's kit
Water Skin
10 days rations
Anything else I'm missing I should have? Anything I should change? All feedback is appreciated. Also, I'm a little unsure of what to do to prep for a Pathfinder Society session. Help?
Cheers,
Dean.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Looks like a nice, solid build! I am prepping a dwarven musket master with a blunderbuss for a friends game.
So, why Precise shot? It's a great feat and high on your must have list, but what about Deadly aim? Its likely you will only get one good shot and more likely it will be before melee happens, so make it hurt!
You are correct about the buckler, sir.
And on the subject of armor, you have rich parents, wouldn't they spring for better armor than leather?
Maybe a good chain shirt? A darkwood buckler is only 257 gp, a pittance for a favored child perhaps? (No armor check penalty and only 2.5 lbs)
And perhaps, 90 paper cartridges? Prepping for a zombie plague? :)
Your gunsmith lets you create alchemical cartridges at half price if you put a rank in Craft(alchemy), also a class skill for you!
You really only need 20ish, remember, they increase your miss fire chance!
Lastly, back up melee weapon? Something that can be thrown is good, throwing axe or daggers are nice.
Hope this is of use.
If you've got the book, I found the Boarding Axe to be a nice back-up melee weapon for my musket master. Sometimes it gives a bonus to climbing too.
If this is Pathfinder Society, no campaign traits are allowed, so no rich parents/chosen child. Also, try starting with Lamellar Leather or Studded Leather armor instead. Leather is generally bad armor. You probably don't need so many cartidges, and get deadly aim first because you get touch attacks which are great for this.
When building my Musket Master, I did the same thing with choosing Precise Shot, but I wish I chose Rapid Shot first. Because you're hitting touch AC, the -4 penalty for shooting into melee is something you can deal with pretty safely.
I bought some melee weapons, but never ended up using them throughout my career.
I could definitely invest in a short sword or boarding axe (thanks for the tip!). As far as the cartridges, I guess that is a lot, I'm new to PF and I don't really know how lenient my GM will be about time to craft or availability of the basic components to do so. I'll definitely look into that dark wood buckler and up the armor (the leather was left over from when I was budgeting myself). In addition to the cartridges coming out of my ears, you may notice I also got a lesser amount of powder and shot. I figure if I go into combat with a loaded gun, that first shot doesn't really matter for the speed at which I load it. Is this a safe assumption?
I guess Deadly aim makes a good bit of sense, that -4 is scary for a D&D kid but I suppose touch attacks make up for that pretty well.
So, for clarification- just make more cartridges as I go, instead of carrying around a sack of them like potatoes?
Also, I've been reading around and saw someone mention that they at one point multiclassed to wizard for access to abundant ammunition. I plan on sticking to my guns, as it were, and going full 'Slinger, but is here merit to what they did? It just seems like everywhere I look, gunslingers are complaining bout the cost of ammo and how it's harder to get access to better equipment down the road due to all that diverted income. Thoughts?
I can't wait to play this character, seems like its going to be a totally different experience than any other character I've played in D&D (monk, ranger, rogue a little cleric). Thanks again for the input!
There's some alternatives to multi-classing for abundant ammunition. One is to use UMD on a wand to get it running. Another way is the Cracked Purple Ioun Stone. It can store a first level spell in it, which anybody wearing the stone can activate as a standard action. Now you just have to get someone to charge up the stone periodically, typically from your wand of AA.
Ok, in addition to what the others have said, if this is for Pathfinder Society your ability scores are off. Pathfinder society does not roll for stats, it uses a 20 point buy.
Something along the lines of (not including racial)
Str 10 (0pts)
Dex 16 (10pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 12 (2pts)
Wis 14 (5pts)
Cha 8 (-2pts)
Additionally, where are you assigning your favored class point?
What are your skills?
- Gauss
I like that ironstone idea Thistledown.
Also remember PFS ammunition, if you take a single rank of Craft: Alchemy, then purchase cost is a mere 10% of the book price.
Invest in cold iron, silver, and even adamandite bullets/cartridges when you are able. 2 or 3 at a time - not terribly expensive AND you'll be glad you have them. The adamandite ones allow you at a very early stage do what most fighters need to save to level 3-4 for with a weapon.
If I was to look at your stats? I think you are waaaay over a 20pt build.
Don't dump Str below 12. You'll need that if you want to wear armour. A masterwork backpack gives you effective encumbrance of 13 str. You can afford that easily after your first adventure.
Carrying too much ammo is what you do. I use paired bandoliers for that. If you run out of Ammo then what good are you?
Precise shot? Take it - sure you are only hitting a touch AC but the great thing about ignoring that -4 is that you are going to be a more consistent hitter and damage dealer. That can be the difference between success and failure and at lower levels you are going to see higher touch ACs than you think (fey, imps etc) or what you'll see past level 5+. Also, it improves your chance of confirming crits. X4 is where you REALLY shine.
Rapid shot doesn't enhance your overall damage on a hit but it a) allows you to split targets (very useful) and b) gives you TWO chances at a crit. I take Deadly aim at level 4 as my bonus feat.
DeanHavoc, you shouldn't get a Buckler until you can afford a Masterwork buckler. Since you are not proficient the Armor Check Penalty applies to ALL of your attack rolls.
Helaman, lack of a 12 strength does not prevent him from wearing armor. It just slows him down until he can buy Mithral armor. Something he can do after a couple scenarios.
At 10 (11 with Masterwork Backpack) he has a 38lb light load.
With Mithral Shirt his armor will only weigh 10 lbs (CRB p466).
Darkwood Buckler is 2.5lbs
Musket weighs 9lbs.
Ammo doesn't have weight
Gunsmith Kit is 2lbs
Powder Horn is 1 lb
Masterwork Backpack 4 lbs
Water Skin 4 lbs
7 days Rations 7 lbs
Total weight:
39.5 lbs
Now, he can shave off some weight if he drops to a hip flask (0.5lbs) and get in under weight but then he should hope that there is a cleric with Create Water handy.
Additionally, he can carry anything 'extra' in a sack and either hand it off to someone else or drop it (free action) at the start of a fight. He can put high weight, low value items in it.
Alternately, a wand of Ant Haul would work wonders (1 prestige point). He can take ranks in UMD.
Finally, someday (maybe level 3 or 4 in PFS) he can get a Handy Haversack and never have to deal with being overweight again.
In short, having a 12 strength MIGHT help for the first level. After that it is not really an issue if he packs wisely.
Edit: I just calculated the weight of his equipment (same list) at first level. Until he gets a Mithral Shirt he is over light encumbrance even with a 12 (13 with Masterwork Backpack) strength.
- Gauss
Gauss wrote:
Helaman, lack of a 12 strength does not prevent him from wearing armor. It just slows him down until he can buy Mithral armor. Something he can do after a couple scenarios.
At 10 (11 with Masterwork Backpack) he has a 38lb light load.
With Mithral Shirt his armor will only weigh 10 lbs (CRB p466).
Darkwood Buckler is 2.5lbs
Musket weighs 9lbs.
Ammo doesn't have weight
Gunsmith Kit is 2lbs
Powder Horn is 1 lb
Masterwork Backpack 4 lbs
Water Skin 4 lbs
7 days Rations 7 lbs
Total weight:
39.5 lbs
Now, he can shave off some weight if he drops to a hip flask (0.5lbs) and get in under weight but then he should hope that there is a cleric with Create Water handy.
Additionally, he can carry anything 'extra' in a sack and either hand it off to someone else or drop it (free action) at the start of a fight. He can put high weight, low value items in it.
Alternately, a wand of Ant Haul would work wonders (1 prestige point). He can take ranks in UMD.
Finally, someday (maybe level 3 or 4 in PFS) he can get a Handy Haversack and never have to deal with being overweight again.
In short, having a 12 strength MIGHT help for the first level. After that it is not really an issue if he packs wisely.
Edit: I just calculated the weight of his equipment (same list) at first level. Until he gets a Mithral Shirt he is over light encumbrance even with a 12 (13 with Masterwork Backpack) strength.
- Gauss
11 Str is 38lbs or less
12 Str is 43lbs or less.
13 str (with pack) is 50lbs or less.
Makes a difference. Small true, but a difference none the less - I can afford to carry an alchemist fire and a potion or two etc.
I also go with the Leather Lamellar Cuirass (8lbs IIRC) for levels 1 and 2.
I've saved my pennies with my just leveled level 3 Musket Master (well... apart from buying a fair whack of the specialty rounds I mentioned above) and have just enough to turn my MW musket to a +1 magic weapon as opposed to the mithril shirt.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Welcome welcome!
Okay one little thing I noticed. Powder horns normally hold 10 doses of black powder. Where are you keeping the rest? :)
You can ditch a few day's worth of rations if this is Society play. Most adventures are resolved in one day. Those that aren't give you enough warning so you can stock up.
Wand of Ant Haul will require a UMD check...and that's per hour per charge. Unless something has changed the prestige cost would be 2 PP, not 1. Most folks recommend a wand of Cure Light Wounds to be the first wand. YMMV, especially if your Society group is a stable one.
90 cartridges is a great many, especially for low level. Standard bandoliers only hold 8 and you can double up for 16. Keep the rest in backpack? I don't carry that many myself but better to have a few extra rounds than be 1 short.
Generally, Society adventures are 3-4 combat encounters. Each combat encounter rarely goes past 4 rounds. My last one (with a gunslinger) had 6 combats (higher than normal) and he fought in 12 rounds total.
My gunslinger carries 10 rounds of standard, 5 rounds of cold iron (2 gp each) and 4 rounds of silver (2.5 gp each). 2 powder horns each with 10 doses of black powder. Hasn't used alchemical cartridges yet, but he will soon.
Until he can reload as a free action, he's not going to be firing more than 1/round. I figure few PFS mods have you in > 35 rounds of combat without a chance to restock. Once he's firing multiple times a round then I'll bump up his ammo supply, especially as he'll be more able to afford them.
Recommendations on upgrading gear:
1. 300 gp to turn your musket into Masterwork.
2. Using prestige only pick up a wand of CLW.
3. 205 gp for MW Darkwood Buckler
4. 2,000 gp for +1 Musket.
5. 1,000 gp for a +1 cloak of resistance.
6. 250 gp for Traveler's any-tool
7. 2,000 gp Handy Haversack OR 1,500 for Endless Bandolier.
Also (when you can carry them):
1 acid flask, 1 alchemists fire, 1 smokestick, 1 tanglefoot bag, 1 sunrod, rope, grapple hook or Traveler's any-tool.
1 oil of align weapon.
1 torch. Really.
Spring-loaded wrist sheath.
Potion of Lesser Restoration.
Hope this helps!
Rerednaw, thanks for the correction on the PP used for a wand, I mistyped that. :)
Helaman, those extra 2 points of strength does NOT save him from being medium encumbered for his first level. After that he can pack weight saving items.
It is a very short term value to have a 12 strength over a 10 strength, but, if he really wants it, he can always drop his Charisma to a 7 and that will pay for the 12 strength.
- Gauss
Thank you all muchly for the help, again. I guess I could've been more clear on my questions and usage. This particular character is NOT for Society play, I was just asking about that for future reference. That's why the ability scores are rolled, not bought.
Gauss - my skills that I've put ranks into are as follows (if you want other totals, just let me know)
Acrobatics 8
Climb 6
Craft Alchemy 6 (only 1 pt, though)
Know. Local 6
Perception 7
Survival 7
Swim 6
Aaaand my UMD is a whopping -1. Thanks, Obama-- err, Charisma.
(the above is a joke)
As for my favored class points, I'm open to suggestion. I've been warring over this internally myself. Thoughts?
Darkwarriorkarg - thanks for the reference, I've checked it out and looks like I'm going down a similar path to that which the author suggests, though I don't know if I'll go down the snap shot path, guess we'll have to see.
Rerednaw - thanks for the tips on ammo, and the blaringly obvious torch.
(the above is vaguely funny? Blaringly obvious? No takers?)
Again, thank you all for the help, sorry I'm infrequent, travelling a lot recently.
Cheers, all.
You have pretty good constitution and pretty good intelligence for a gunslinger, so going for the grit points for your favored class bonus will probably give you the most noticeable benefit. Since you always need to keep one grit point in reserve and never want to be at maximum (in case you get a chance to regain) getting that maximum a bit higher will really help your versatility. Once you have 5 or so grit points getting more probably won't make much difference, so I'd go for hitpoints from then on, as those are always useful.
Also, I wouldn't take deadly aim over precise shot. Things you fight are going to be in melee a lot of the time, and even when targeting touch AC taking a -5 to hit (-4 precise, -1 deadly aim) for 2 extra damage will average out to be a bad deal. Taking rapid shot at 1 is pointless, because you cannot use it until you can get free action reloading going at musket master level 3. So keep your feats as they are, get rapid shot at 3 and deadly aim at 4.
The snap shot feat chain is incredibly awesome, so I would recommend going for that in the future (especially since there just isn't that much other good stuff for gunslingers).
soupturtle The snap shot line is really super cool, I admit, and eventually threatening those extra feet is amazing. My main reason for not really thinking I want/need it is that I plan on spending a grand total of NO time in the front lines. Not to say that it won't happen now and again, of course, simply that I would rather invest my feats in making myself better at what I'll be doing 90% of the time rather than making a melee shooter. That's definitely some solid advice about precise shot, I didn't take into account that extra 1 from deadly aim making it a swing of 5 instead of 4 (not a huge difference, but every bit counts). I think I'll take your route on that, so thanks for help :)
As a gunslinger, you may not want to spend your time being the front line, but you always want to be near it, since your enemies need to be within your first range increment. While as a musket master that's a decent 40ft, that's still within charge range even for a dwarf or something similarly slow. So you will get enemies approaching you. Also, you have high dexterity, decent armor proficiencies, a class ability that adds to your AC and a decent hit die, which means you can take more hits than anyone else except a melee character (and more than quite a few of those as well). If you play like you're a super-squishy caster you deprive your party of a valuable resource: your ability to soak up some hits when needed.
I'm not saying snap shot is the only way to play a good gunslinger, but I do think expecting never to come close to your enemies is probably not the best way to play a gunslinger.
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