| Benifey |
So I'm about to join in this campaign, and they currently have a cleric and an antipaladin. There's only going to be 3 PCs, so I'm trying to fill the stealthy and big damage roles, and I'm set on an archer. I could still be convinced otherwise, but so far it looks like archer is the way to go. However, I'm split between a Treantmonk-esque strength-based switch hitter, or a more generic straight up dexterity-based ranger. My conflict can basically be divided into "more damage less utility" with the str-based, or vice versa with the dex-based ranger.
The way I see it, I'm going to have a load more fun in combat with the strength ranger, but a lot more usefulness with the dex ranger (and the fun will follow out of combat.) If those were the only factors, I'd go right for the greater usefulness. However, with the strength ranger, if I need to do a bit of scouting before combat, I could just take my armor off and have +5 stealth (as opposted to dex's +7 constant.) But what if I get ambushed? I have a lot of reservations about both of these options. I guess I'm just making this thread to ask if anyone has any personal insight on either build, or wants to offer up a new one.
TL;DR: tell me what I want to do.
(PS: using a 15 point buy in the campaign)
| Mysterious Stranger |
You can still be stealthy with a STR based ranger. It is a class skill and you have plenty of skill points assuming you are not dumping INT. The armor is not going to be that big of a problem. Even if you spend a feat to get heavy armor proficiency it will not be until high level. You cannot use your ranger combat style feats in heavy armor. That means you have to have mithiral full plate. By the time you can afford that you will be pretty high level so should have a decent stealth even in armor. Also keep in mind that a good STR also increases the amount of gear you can carry without being encumberd.
If you are using traits the armor expert is almost required for a ranger. It is the equivalent of having 6 extra skill points. For a ranger this is a full levels worth of skill points.
You are going to want to have at least a 13 DEX even on a STR based ranger for deadly Aim. So it is not like DEX is a dump stat.
| Grizzly the Archer |
I've played a fair share of archers. They get ridiculous damage even if you don't optimize them.
That can better help me with your str and dex score.
Archers should always max out their dex in my opinion. It doesn't matter how much damage you do, of you can't hit the enemy. Taking a 2-3 damage penalty per shot from not having maxed out your str for damage won't hurt too much, just more so in lower levels for a bit. That roughly 2-3 damage not being done x 3-4 arrow shots (many shot, rapid shot bab+6)= anywhere from 6-12 points of damage not occurring.
I would max out dex, with str being your 2nd best stat, followed up by wis for spellcasting, and con. Dump charisma and try not to dump int, since you'll want all those skills for utility.
If you can dump a sta to 7 I'd do.... STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 7
If you can't below 10 (which really hurts and sucks).....STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 10 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10
Your con will still be ok considering your an archer. Staying out of the thick of things is crucial for you. Also, your skill points aren't that bad, and only a few key skills are required, so not dumping your skills is ok, but so is not improving them with a score above 10.
| Cathulhu |
you really do not lose much utility (if at all) by going STR primary.
IN my opinion, if you are going for an optimized archer Ranger, you want something that is mounted, with all the usual archery feats. This allows you to still move, while still full attacking. Problem with that is that you can't always be in large open spaces that allows this.
This is where the switch hitter shines: Versatility. Open spaces: you can do well. Close quarters: you can do well. When are you truly THE best at something? probably never, but you always have something to do, some role to fill regardless.
| mplindustries |
The dichotomy presented in the thread title is a false one. Strength determines damage for melee and ranged attacks, so all Rangers should be strength based. I think the real question is whether you care about Dexterity equally or if you can sort of ditch it for some extra Con/Wisdom.
I also think the idea of a "switch hitter" is a silly one--there's no reason to ever get into melee as an archer. And when bad guys get in your face, you're almost always better off just shooting them in the face and taking the AoO than wasting time pulling out a weapon--not that it's eay or likely for enemies to get into a properly played archer's face.
| Benifey |
As for my stats, I'm looking at str: 18, dex:13, Con:13, Int:10, Wis:13, Cha:7 for the strength build, and Str:12, Dex:18, Con:12, Int:10, Wis:14, Cha:7 for the dex build. Nothing original.
you really do not lose much utility (if at all) by going STR primary.
While it's true that you don't take any direct hits to utility, if I'm going to be skipping out on dex for str, I need something to boost my AC back up. Anything that's going to be competitive with a dex build's armor (in this case a breastplate) will hit me with a -3 or -4 to my skils.
I also think the idea of a "switch hitter" is a silly one--there's no reason to ever get into melee as an archer. And when bad guys get in your face, you're almost always better off just shooting them in the face and taking the AoO than wasting time pulling out a weapon--not that it's eay or likely for enemies to get into a properly played archer's face.
I think you miss the idea of a switch hitter. Firstly, you take quick draw so that you can drop your bow and draw your melee weapon as a free action. You never have to think twice about risking an AoO, because you're equally as proficient in melee combat as in ranged. You're not scared of an enemy in your face.
| Cathulhu |
A switch hitter isn't an archer: A switch hitter is a two handed power attacking ranger that has range options.
Where as your typical two handed power attacking beef cake will be at a loss of what to do when you have, say, flying opponents, the switch hitting ranger will produce damage output at range nearing that of a dedicated archer. However, she doesn't have Precise Shot, or in fact many of the usual archer feats. She doesn't shoot into melee. When melee is joined, she joins too.
People seem to get confused about the role of a switch hitter, a la Treantmonk and his guide. You are not an archer with a sword; you are a swordsman with a bow. You just happen to pretty good with the bow, too.
| Benifey |
If you are using traits the armor expert is almost required for a ranger. It is the equivalent of having 6 extra skill points. For a ranger this is a full levels worth of skill points.
I actually skipped over this trait somehow. Thanks for pointing it out, makes the strength ranger that much sweeter.
| MrSin |
mplindustries wrote:I also think the idea of a "switch hitter" is a silly one--there's no reason to ever get into melee as an archer. And when bad guys get in your face, you're almost always better off just shooting them in the face and taking the AoO than wasting time pulling out a weapon--not that it's eay or likely for enemies to get into a properly played archer's face.I think you miss the idea of a switch hitter. Firstly, you take quick draw so that you can drop your bow and draw your melee weapon as a free action. You never have to think twice about risking an AoO, because you're equally as proficient in melee combat as in ranged. You're not scared of an enemy in your face.
Didn't miss the idea of a switch hitter at all, or at least I don't think. Nothing was said that contradicted the idea that you can switch weapons without an AoO. The thing is you can almost always five foot step and full attack if someone does get close. Always getting your full attack off is a nice thing. Personally I'm not a big fan of enhancing more than one weapon and I think archery's ability to almost always full attack and switch between materials easily is pretty nifty.
As for my stats, I'm looking at str: 18, dex:13, Con:13, Int:10, Wis:13, Cha:7 for the strength build, and Str:12, Dex:18, Con:12, Int:10, Wis:14, Cha:7 for the dex build. Nothing original.
Why so many odd numbers? You'll probably be safe with a 12 in wisdom, you don't need to depend on DCs and an item with +2 wisdom will pop you up to 14 when you need it.
Anyways, I like to prioritize dex when I make an archer. Dex just happens to be useful for so many more things than strength. I wouldn't dump strength though. Besides, dexterity with a mithral breastplate is cheaper than strength with a mithral full plate and gives a much better dexterity score. Only one AC difference if you reach 22 dexterity. My current character is an archer built with his emphasis on dex, 20 point buy and 3pp Marksman though.
| Benifey |
Benifey wrote:As for my stats, I'm looking at str: 18, dex:13, Con:13, Int:10, Wis:13, Cha:7 for the strength build, and Str:12, Dex:18, Con:12, Int:10, Wis:14, Cha:7 for the dex build. Nothing original.Why so many odd numbers? You'll probably be safe with a 12 in wisdom, you don't need to depend on DCs and an item with +2 wisdom will pop you up to 14 when you need it.
I plan on putting points into dex at 4, wis at 8 (close to when I'll need it for spells), and con at 12. While it's true that some magic item could just pop up, I'm not going to base my character off that assumption. I'll most likely have to buy my magic items, and if anything I want to spend my gold on a magic item that will benefit str or dex.
| Benifey |
So you don't think that before level 10 you might have a chance to buy a +2 wisdom headband thingy? Sounds like a rough campaign.
Say that I went with my previously mentioned strength build, but tweaked it so that I start with 12 wisdom. My stats would be 18 str, 14 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 7 cha. So I would start with an extra +1 dex mod. However, I would only get another +1 mod between 1 and 12, compared to the total of +3 mods I would get if I went with the odd numbers at level 1. I would start off stronger from level 1-4, they would be even until 12, and from 12-16 the odd stat start would be beter. Overall, there's not a whole lot of difference in the two. However, I could get a +2 bonus from a headband to my dex, which gives the odd number start an edge. Maybe I'm missing something?