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This:
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you
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Down with boob plate! Up with nudity!
Well, I think something can be said about boob-plate and the potentially derogatory image of women; or else some people finding it aesthetically silly etc.
But when it comes to the arguments like "It would kill you", or "it would hinder more than it would protect", or "it would cause more hazard to yourself than to your enemies", then we can retire about 50% of fantasy armours, male and female versions alike...
Chances are that the more 'badass' the armour looks, the more you have erred from realism...
There was a thread (or two) about this earlier.
Though, Laurefindel, I think there's a pretty large difference between overly-ornamental shoulder pads and an armor shape that will literally focus the force of a blow into the center of your ribcage (unless the breast part happened to be filled with cork or some other material).
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is the search function broken or are you guys starting this thread over on purpose
Y'know, putting aside the functionality half of the argument, I haven't really been bothered by the esthetics of boob plate since I saw Batman and Robin. That's the movie where Batman and Robin both have rubber nipples on their costumes, but Batgirl doesn't.
Also, I did manage to convince a friend who was GM-ing to give me a masterwork tool bonus to Intimidate because my fighter "embellished" his codpiece. I can't believe I just admitted that; I'm just not a good influence on these boards. :(
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Did you mean to say 'masterwork tool bonus?
I sure hope so.
Boob plate bothers me in the same way that stupidly oversized/spiky weaponry bothers me, i.e. pointless nitpicky nerdsome fun-smothering. Is it possible to design armour that is both sexy and practical? When will equal-opportunity rubber nipple provision become a reality? What did Joan of Arc wear when she went into battle?
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I think Paizo should actually spec boob plate mechanically.
It might grant a slight bonus to aesthetically relevant skill rolls at the cost of being an inferior AC bonus for its weight.
Artists (for all products, not just Paizo) will then have to consider whether or not the character is actually wearing boob plate or an actual breastplate before illustrating.
Did you mean to say 'masterwork tool bonus?
I sure hope so.
Boob plate bothers me in the same way that stupidly oversized/spiky weaponry bothers me, i.e. pointless nitpicky nerdsome fun-smothering. Is it possible to design armour that is both sexy and practical? When will equal-opportunity rubber nipple provision become a reality? What did Joan of Arc wear when she went into battle?
50 gp and an extra pound of weight, ladies.
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Am I bad person for liking spikes of villainy, chainmail bikini, and all those other tropes about impractical clothing in my fantasy gaming?
Did you mean to say 'masterwork tool bonus?
I sure hope so.
Boob plate bothers me in the same way that stupidly oversized/spiky weaponry bothers me, i.e. pointless nitpicky nerdsome fun-smothering. Is it possible to design armour that is both sexy and practical? When will equal-opportunity rubber nipple provision become a reality? What did Joan of Arc wear when she went into battle?
I believe the quote most often used is, "the equipment of a knight."
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great. another breastplate-is-demeaning thread. haven't ground that subject into fine powder before, have we.
Y'know, having finally read (well, skimmed) the linked article, I wish the author had included more examples of functional-breastplates-worn-by-women (look, it's a thing, there are websites out there) than Elizabeth.
Maybe I'm just watching all the movies, but I haven't seen a lot of inappropriately sexy female garb on the big screen since Red Sonja/Conan/Kull, and that was decades ago. I won't say that Xena was historically accurate by any means, but her armor was at least slightly functional.
Edit: I guess my point is that boob-plate is already being retired but, gradually, over the slow course of time. /cuetheelfharps
The article is exaggerating for comedy. It is also missing something. By talking about attacks and force being directed inwards it is excluding the other possibility--that of breast shaped armour deflecting attacks outwards and harmlessly away. This has been my experience in fencing, pointed breastplate armour, which some have and use under their outfit to protect the breasts, is very effective at deflecting direct attacks away, and can prevent a point being scored.
It can even get to the extent of seeming OP. As in, you make a perfectly good lunge, which can't find a surface to cling to, and it slides off. You don't get the point, they stab you. You regret being a man.
Afterwards, you avoid attacking the chest directly, because the pointed plastic plate does such a good job.
Some late breastplates went with a point on the chest, generally just one, to deflect piercing attacks. I will say that attacking pyramids with piercing weapons is hard. I am sure you can imagine why and do your own tests (try stab a smooth bit of pyramid kitsch with a knife).
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So, in a game where you play a character who can wiggle their fingers and make raging balls of fire appear, you have a problem with armor that accentuates female secondary sexual characteristics?
Two words:
"But, Dragons."
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You can have my boobplate when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
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You can have my boobplate when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
Or his hot, sweaty ones, as the case may be....
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honestly i don't even think about boob plate. but if we wanted to get into that argument wouldn't we argue that Crossbows could penetrate metal plate armor anyway? Which lead to the down fall of plate armor anyway? Sooo shouldn't crossbows be running on touch ac similar to guns?
Anyway, its fantasy i like it being a little unreal.
I don't think much of boob plate and it often looks silly, BUT:
What is a female character to do if she can't cram her boobs into a flat-chested suit of armor? I'm not talking about fighters with giant fake supermodel boobs either. What if they're fat, or curvy? The examples people pick for sensible, realistic suits or armor are usually worn by women with smaller breasts.
I can remember some guy on a different forum claiming to be a hobbyist armor smith saying "Why not make the centre of the chest about 3 inches thick? Deflect all the blows onto it and let is absorb them".
Whether its practical is a matter of details much smaller than the pathfinder system is concerned with, and it's not nearly so silly as MMO-style female plate armour that's designed to show off skin.
Pathfinder should be able to do any fantasy tone, however gritty or campy it may be. This is clearly something that doesn't need any rules, because if such armor is any less practical it won't exist in your setting. I don't really see a reason to have a strong opinion on it, except that it shouldn't be compulsory for women.
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Unless her breasts are larger than the rest of her body and the breastplate, there's no issue. It's not like a shirt you slip on, it's a piece that is attached from the front, and they should already be wearing a few layers of fairly tight padding. Having larger, normal (that is to say human sized breast) is irrelevant.
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great. another breastplate-is-demeaning thread. haven't ground that subject into fine powder before, have we.
Nope.
This "Realism vs. Fantasy" issue cuts to the very core of the definition of "Fun" for very different groups of players. Because it is a fundamental disagreement based on personal preferences, the two sides cannot truly reach a consensus - even finding a balance between the two is nearly impossible.
And because everyone, for obvious reasons, wants their entertainment to be fun, they want the game art to conform to their definition of fun (see above).
So, no, we have not exhausted the subject. And we never will.
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But I never really thought of Seelah as a "skeletally sized supermodel".
Might not be, I haven't really seen her without armor that I can think of, but then I kind of hate the iconics. I was assuming based on the flesh we see, and it's hard to tell with a lot of the decoration, but her limbs loo very skinny.
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Now I imagine an ancient pervert blacksmith, working day and night over many seasons to make the perfect boobplate.
One day, success! It works, it looks good, he is pleased. A single tear goes down his bearded face.
His designs would spread to the furthest corners of Golarion. Across the ages and irrespective of the country, when mighty warriors viewed a perfect example of high quality boobplate they would find themselves suddenly with wet eyes, and a single tear would roll down their face.
Those that knew the story of boobplate's creation would say, "thank you ancient pervert blacksmith."
The padding is a good point, but again, some people bother to consider that level of detail and some people don't.
This reminds me of somebody talking about practical superhero outfits. Batman's outfit (all versions) would be hilariously impractical in real life, but it's very sensible and practical considering the rules of his stories.
Boob plate is the same. Considering the level of attention fantasy adventure stories usually give to armor and to practicality, those two metal bumps don't seem so out of place.
I still say don't worry about from a common sense point of view. It's only if a problem when its a symptom of different standards being applied to female warriors.
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Because it is a fundamental disagreement based on personal preferences, the two sides cannot truly reach a consensus - even finding a balance between the two is nearly impossible.
And because everyone, for obvious reasons, wants their entertainment to be fun, they want the game art to conform to their definition of fun (see above).
So, no, we have not exhausted the subject. And we never will.
Sure we can. It's actually very easy.
a.) ok, lets meet in the middle, you can have your gunslinger in my fantasy and we will just ban guns.
b.) boob plate is dumb/boob plate is kind of cool = henceforth all females will have their right breast nude, and may choose to cover the left if they want. Not required. Same goes for the kilt and war kilt, with the same solution: all females are henceforth in Paizo are to be topless, or half so.
c.) Dervish Dance is OP/ is not OP -> Ok, but a rock falls from the heavens and smashes you to death. Sadly, that was the last living being to have mastered the dance of the dervish. So what's your next character?
d.) Magus/Summoner/other are perfectly fine and balanced vs are you stupid? No seriously, are you? -> get Team Edward-Magus-Summoner-other an IQ test and complimentary slap to the back of the head.
e.) Super easter-Tian, anime clone fans/Um, ok. . . if I have to, doesn't really fit anywhere. -> Katanas are so perfect and epic of a weapon, they are always considered improvised weapons for penalties, even if you are otherwise a weapon master or reduce the penalties. Katana is a 1d6, 20/x2 lashing weapon, with a lot of flavor and stuff.
See easy to meat in the middle. :)
Ha, I actually like the idea of the katana being d6, 20/x2. Maybe the samurai are just really enthusiastic with good PR.
Agreed. I mostly don't like it as the standard in published artwork. And primarily for the sexism/male gaze reasons.
So... Would it be fair if we had equally attractive male costumes to compliment the women's? Female gaze is a trope too!
Boris Vallejo was always very good with the male epic fantasy forms as well as the female, and guess what. They look just as ridiculous as the oversexed female forms. What everyone does here, fighting for the one side or the other, is deny the fact that there's a possibility for both to coexist. Rejecting 'boob plate' is on par with getting dolled up, going to a bar, and slapping a guy who's looking at your 6 inches of cleavage.
Human nature dictates what we find attractive. If we apply that and turn a functional item into an item of visual pleasure, we aren't being masogynist jackwads, we're being human. Yes, I completely agree that there's far too much of the possibly-useless-but-attractive art form. What I would say after that is: Get off you're armchair soap box, pick up a pencil, and start drawing a more pleasing version for yourself.
I don't make purchase decisions of paizo products based on how much skin seoni's showing, or that kyra's a lesbian. I purchase it for the content inside, and I see art, any art, as an expression of the creator, what's inside them coming out, and sharing with the world. I don't automatically suspect the artist of drawing to command (Yea, uh, bob. I'm gonna need you to go ahead and redraw that with more sideboob, and uh, maybe show some more leg. Great, thanks.) Nor do I think they're focused on the absolute sexual expression of the image. (wait, I can put way bigger boobs on that barbarian, and just for phallic imagery, we'll give her a huuuuuuge blade.)
It seems like all these threads do is get down into a feminist/troll shouting match and never solves anything, just satisfies their need to argue until they get wound up about it again.
Agreed. I mostly don't like it as the standard in published artwork. And primarily for the sexism/male gaze reasons.So... Would it be fair if we had equally attractive male costumes to compliment the women's? Female gaze is a trope too!Fair, I suppose. In the way that offending everyone is fair.
I'd rather see outfits that are attractive without sexualising.
Edit: At least when sexualising isn't appropriate. If the characters are dressing up for a night on the town, sexualize away. If they're preparing for a wilderness adventure, not so much.
Well, obviously being offensive to everyone isn't the best solution.
One thing to remember is artwork is supposed to be flashy and attention grabbing, so its not the worst idea to try to make it attractive in some fashion.
Another thing is that everyone's opinions are going to be wildly different about what's awesome and practical.
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I don't know about the guys here, but I would wear a chainmail bikini to every dungeon crawl I could go on if I went on dungeon crawls.
My butt would charm spell the heck out of those purple worms.
AND I would be known as that guy with a chainmail thong. Tell me that isn't a fearsome reputation starter.
Time to go do some squats. I got a castle to raid.
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I too hate that argument
Me too, but I hear it so much I figured I'd just get it out there early.
In this case though, I actually am fine with magical boob plate armor. It IS magic. Mundane boob plate should get a -1 AC penalty though.
Because "realism".
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While I'm all for more female gaze in fantasy gaming, adding more of it doesn't make boobplate any more or less okay. Look, I get it. Guys like boobs. We're allowed to. That doesn't mean we can force our sexual preferences onto character designs under the pretenses of "it grabs attention and enriches the design." There are many other ways of making a character designs stand out, and even if none come to mind you can just throw a ton of belts or goggles on there.
The reason why boobplate is the subject of argument, while oversized swords aren't, has to do with the context. Boobplate is an objectification trope towards women, and ultimately it is there for the sex appeal. Contrast with a big sword, which doesn't objectify anyone.
Throwing egregious manservice at us equal the amount female fanservice is not the answer. You can still do it, but tone down the female designs for a change. There is already a huge backlog of boobplate and chainmail bikinis. For the people who want it, it is already there. We really don't need anymore of it right now.
So, seriously, in a mechanical context, how does this even come up? Boob plate is fluff, AC is crunch. There is no such thing as "boob plate armor" in the armor descriptions, so from a mechanical perspective it simply doesn't exist.
Does the subject come up because of miniatures? Artwork?
If it comes from one of those two sources, it is pretty much the equivalent of complaining about the size or shape of a sword, or whether you could see well enough to fight from certain types of helmets with faceplates.
I would imagine actual military combat experts would find a lot more problems with your average fantasy combat illustration than whether some female has armor that also lifts and separates.
So, seriously, in a mechanical context, how does this even come up? Boob plate is fluff, AC is crunch. There is no such thing as "boob plate armor" in the armor descriptions, so from a mechanical perspective it simply doesn't exist.
Female armor with boob protrusions is entirely a artwork and miniature thing, so it doesn't exist at all in a mechanical way. Again, it isn't about the mechanics. It's about the objectification.
People can complain about the helmet being weird or useless, but it isn't the same.
Just for curiosities sake, is there any Pathfinder artwork featuring boobplate? I get the impression that we might be arguing about something that is not relevant to this specific company.
thejeff, hmm... then all the posts above, including the ORIGINAL post which approached this as a problem with "realism" aren't really what this thread is about then? It's really just about the sexism/male gaze problem after all?
I think I must have been reading a different thread.
So... what artwork has boobplate anyway? Only iconic with it is Seelah(iconic paladin) has something close, and she has a large guard over her chest, neck, and shoulders. If anything you might want to complain about the iconic magus for not looking like he's wearing any and his exposded chest(or not... He certainly didn't dump strength did he?)
is the search function broken or are you guys starting this thread over on purpose
Seriously.