Can I cast Evolution Surge and Greater Evolution Surge on my eidolon at the same time? They are different spells and they would be giving different evolutions. I've been playing my Summoner into his 11th level and I want to know if I haven't been tapping into his full potential.
I also understand Summoners are a broken, difficult class to play (as this is my first Pathfinder game I'm learning all too well this was a trial by fire) and I just want to make sure I know all I can about them.
By RAW they should be available at the same time since they are different spells (lesser, greater and the "normal" evolution surge) for a 2, a 4 and a 6 point evolution. They definitely couldn't be combined into a single 12 point evolution since the spell specifies that the evo points cannot be used to upgrade an evolution the eidolon already has.
I am wondering if you can have multiple lesser evolution surges at the same time, each giving another 2 point evolution. I am not finding any references saying that it can't be done since they are not bonuses with a specific type. But I can't find anything to say that it does work either.
Summary:
different spells: definitely.
single surge multiple times: maybe
Stacking rules would cover the same spell being cast multiple times on a target. Only the most recent casting would be 'in effect' the rest would be suppressed until the last casting was dispelled or wore off (assuming the second to last casting was longer duration).
Should try synthesist. Now there is confusion.
I also understand Summoners are a broken, difficult class to play (as this is my first Pathfinder game I'm learning all too well this was a trial by fire) and I just want to make sure I know all I can about them.
Contested. The broken part, at least. Summoners are not broken. Eidolons are glass cannon, especially at early levels. Some GMs have a very hard time coping with that, but for experienced GMs this should be a non-issue.
Difficult to play? Maybe. There are a few important rules buried deep in the class text (eidolons can't wear armor) that trip a lot of people up, myself included.
Can I cast Evolution Surge and Greater Evolution Surge on my eidolon at the same time? They are different spells and they would be giving different evolutions. I've been playing my Summoner into his 11th level and I want to know if I haven't been tapping into his full potential.
I also understand Summoners are a broken, difficult class to play (as this is my first Pathfinder game I'm learning all too well this was a trial by fire) and I just want to make sure I know all I can about them.You can't stack them to get one super big evolution, You have to use them for separate ones entirely.
I also require that if you're going to use those spells at my table, if you have to spend 5 minutes calculating your eidolon, you're passing your turn. It's a good idea to prepare eidolon sheets with these abilities already in effect.
How could you be casting these spells if this was your first Pathfinder game? I would definitely not be allowing this class to a new player on his first game, and definitely not in a high level slot insertion of a newbie player.
The only thing worse than this class attached to a power gamer, is this class attached to a total ingenue.
Oh no, we've been playing for nearly a year to get this level. And jeez what a year. I don't think I've ever done as much external research for anything as much as I have for this class. I have become pretty solid with my characters, choosing what made sense over how to break my eidolon. I keep up with our veteran players working as mostly a buffer and damage dealer. I know how easy it is to break Eidolons and have made accidental bombs out of my characters, but we are a story heavy group and I try to always keep that in mind when choosing Lili's (my eidolon) evolutions.
As for the worry on what evolutions I'd take, there are no worries there. I have filled a notebook with stats, numbers, math, and scores based on various builds. When we level, 9/10 I'll already have my eidolon setup in advance. If this stacking spells works, then I'll have a list of evolutions I'd want from each one and be able to pick them out based on situation. For instance, were about to go up against a Lightning and Paralysis loving Mohrg, so I'm tossing on her the Celestial Appearance 2nd stage evolution for the bonuses she would get from it.
So fear not, I know the class very well and, other than this question, I feel pretty good about my knowledge of it (not including archetypes, still reading). Though sadly I don't think I'll ever join PFS. Not only is my best class sort of taboo, if I don't min/max or power play it (reason for it being taboo) they're actually rather mediocre classes.
Should try synthesist. Now there is confusion.
Oh don't get me STARTED on Synthesists. I've had to help build an army of them to be used as a high CR enemy for another section of our Campaign. Our Campaign consists of three separate groups, I'm in A and C. The Hollowed (as they're called) was sent after group B and hunted at in Group C
Stacking rules would cover the same spell being cast multiple times on a target. Only the most recent casting would be 'in effect' the rest would be suppressed until the last casting was dispelled or wore off (assuming the second to last casting was longer duration).
But I don't think stacking rules apply here if you cast the spells to grant different evolutions, or even the same evolution if the rules say that the evolution can be taken more than once. The spell effect simply grants extra evolutions, so with each casting you determine whether the evolution you choose is legal for the eidolon and the spell in question and then add it on for the duration of the spell. This is not a case like Bull's Strength where you are attempting to give a character two +4 enhancement bonuses to the same ability score. Even the Ability Score Increase evolution would not work that way.
Stacking rules would cover the same spell being cast multiple times on a target. Only the most recent casting would be 'in effect' the rest would be suppressed until the last casting was dispelled or wore off (assuming the second to last casting was longer duration).But I don't think stacking rules apply here if you cast the spells to grant different evolutions, or even the same evolution if the rules say that the evolution can be taken more than once. The spell effect simply grants extra evolutions, so with each casting you determine whether the evolution you choose is legal for the eidolon and the spell in question and then add it on for the duration of the spell. This is not a case like Bull's Strength where you are attempting to give a character two +4 enhancement bonuses to the same ability score. Even the Ability Score Increase evolution would not work that way.
Technically the result of the spell is irrelevant, the 'effect' is still coming from a single spell cast multiple times. The single spell is the 'source' for each effect. Essentially each time you cast the spell, the new spell takes over and grants its own effect. This new spell suppresses the earlier effect causing it to 'go away' and be replaced with the new spell effect.
TL;DR, it is the same spell giving different effects each time it is cast. Casting the same spell repeatedly brings in the stacking rules, regardless of the effect of the spell.
Stacking rules would cover the same spell being cast multiple times on a target. Only the most recent casting would be 'in effect' the rest would be suppressed until the last casting was dispelled or wore off (assuming the second to last casting was longer duration).But I don't think stacking rules apply here if you cast the spells to grant different evolutions, or even the same evolution if the rules say that the evolution can be taken more than once. The spell effect simply grants extra evolutions, so with each casting you determine whether the evolution you choose is legal for the eidolon and the spell in question and then add it on for the duration of the spell. This is not a case like Bull's Strength where you are attempting to give a character two +4 enhancement bonuses to the same ability score. Even the Ability Score Increase evolution would not work that way.
Technically the result of the spell is irrelevant, the 'effect' is still coming from a single spell cast multiple times. The single spell is the 'source' for each effect. Essentially each time you cast the spell, the new spell takes over and grants its own effect. This new spell suppresses the earlier effect causing it to 'go away' and be replaced with the new spell effect.
TL;DR, it is the same spell giving different effects each time it is cast. Casting the same spell repeatedly brings in the stacking rules, regardless of the effect of the spell.
Question would you allow a caster to layer Resist Energy on a PC more then once to protect from multiple energy types?
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I think the question is are you giving them different evolution or in effect evolution points which they buy evolutions with.
The former would suggest that as long as each one is different than the spells stack.
The latter would suggest that when you cast Evolution Surge, lesser you get 2 points and can buy x, Evolution Surge gives you 4 points to buy x Evolution Surge, greater gives you 6 points and you can buy x and y. In this case than they wouldnt stack because each spell is giving you the same bonus, evolution points, and only the highest level one would operable.
This is different from resist energy because that is a specific ability for each casting, resist fire 10, resist cold 20, resist acid 30 etc..
In this case these are defined values and not points toward the ability.
Personally given the way they have worded bonuses in the past and with ruling against such things as stacking agile maneuvers and fury's fall, I would use when GMing the idea that they don't stack, and I played my synthesist that way. He still had both lesser and regular, just used them for different situations. (he mostly used Evolution Surge, cause Haste was his 2nd spell of choice)