I have a gunslinger in my campaign who has been using his musket to cold cock people for d10 HP.
Re reading the rules for pistol whip I asked him if that should not cost a grit point each time He said only if he was going for the surprise attack thingie.
I countered that at best a musket would be an improvised weapon and would take a penalty to hit (Esp at d10 damage!!) He said as a gunslinger using it as a melee weapon is a skill, but I cannot find the rule stating that.
Am I missing something?
Gun slingers already have it hard paying so much for ammo and slow loading, but using the stock of your gun in the real world is a good way to split it quickly.
Searched the boards (Like 650+ entries for pistol whip) but could not find anything about using fire arm as melee without using a grit point. I have suggested a bayonet!
Thanks
Les
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It costs him a grit each time. Or you can use the improvised weapon rules (2 handed club?)
In PFS there are only plug bayonets, meaning you can't fire while it's attached. And it's a move action to mount or unmount it. There is a magic one that carries the enchantments of any weapon it's attached too, but sadly there's no magic bayonet that allows master mounting/unmounting.
If it's a home campaign, there is a ring bayonet that allows firing while attached, but only for the specific type of rifle used in the adventure path.
Based on the entry in on the gunslinger page on the SRD, you could rule that it would be an improvised weapon. Bolded part of the entry in the spoiler for emphasis, but it states when doing a pistol-whip, the gunslinger is considered proficient using the gun in melee.
Let's look at it from another angle. Can't find it on the SRD, but in the Core Rulebook on page 145 it states what happens when using arrows as a melee weapon instead of ranged.
Bayonet states that it allows you to make melee attacks with certain ranged weapons but renders them useless for range.
Based off these 3 points, you are correct that he would incur a -4 penalty for improvised weapons.
I can't remember where I read it, but isn't there a rule that specific wording in an ability overrules general? That could be a basis on needing a grit point for not incurring a improvised penalty as well.
Otherwise, compromise and rule it doing non-lethal for not using a grit point. That way, hopefully, everybody is happy.
It costs him a grit each time. Or you can use the improvised weapon rules (2 handed club?)
In PFS there are only plug bayonets, meaning you can't fire while it's attached. And it's a move action to mount or unmount it. There is a magic one that carries the enchantments of any weapon it's attached too, but sadly there's no magic bayonet that allows master mounting/unmounting.
If it's a home campaign, there is a ring bayonet that allows firing while attached, but only for the specific type of rifle used in the adventure path.
Spent too much time researching and Thistledown beat me to it, but at least you're not alone in your interpretation Praetorian.
Based on the entry in on the gunslinger page on the SRD, you could rule that it would be an improvised weapon. Bolded part of the entry in the spoiler for emphasis, but it states when doing a pistol-whip, the gunslinger is considered proficient using the gun in melee.
As written, a gunslinger is proficient in using the firearm in in melee at no penalty (because he's proficient), and it cost him 1 grit point each time he use it. As far I can see, forcing the "it cost 1 grit point only in surprise round" is a malicious and really, really wrong interpretation. I'm not the DM, but if someone come to me with this intepretation based on the first sentence, I'd think for sure he's trying to bend the rules for his own advantage.
Let's look at it from another angle. Can't find it on the SRD, but in the Core Rulebook on page 145 it states what happens when using arrows as a melee weapon instead of ranged.
But arrows are ammunition, the firearm itself no. For a good comparation, you should check what rules states about bows or crossbows for melee attacks with them.
Based off these 3 points, you are correct that he would incur a -4 penalty for improvised weapons....
Don't see why:
"When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon".You emphasized this point. And you fail to check the rules of improvised weapons:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.
Emphasis mine. As you can see, the use of an improvised weapon is treated like the character is not proficient. Now, the use of a firearm in melee clearly fall in the improvised weapons category (a firearm is not designed for use in melee), you are treated as non proficient with it. But, wait, you're a Gunslinger with Pistol-Whip deed, that says: "she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon ". So, if you're considered proficient, you don't get the -4 penalty for being non proficient with the improvised weapon.
Does he have the feat Catch Off Guard? it allows no penalty to use it as an improvised weapon.
Or tell him to pick up a Musket Axe.
Cathulhu's advice is good, though feat slots are limited.
That's why I'd go with the Musket Axe myself.
Musket Axe is my preference.
Only problem... is whether or not it works with the free rapid Reload (Muskets) that the Musket Master gets. I still dream of that FAQ/clarification at least once a week.
I think the bayonet needes to be enchanted on it's own to get a magical effect term it. Since wouldn't the effects on the gun be for ranged attacks, and not apply to melee attacks?
I think the bayonet needes to be enchanted on it's own to get a magical effect term it. Since wouldn't the effects on the gun be for ranged attacks, and not apply to melee attacks?
Yes, but there is a specific, otherwise MW bayonet that uses whatever enchantment you have on the musket that can be used in melee. I can't recall the name, however...
I am the player...that's not quite what I said. What I said was it costs a grit point to make the attack as a surprise attack with the added benefit of getting a free attempt to knock the opponent prone. I can see why that attack costs a grit point.
It's not really a surprise attack, because your target is not denied dex anyway.
But would it not make sense that I could make a normal melee attack, not use a grit point and not get the surprise/trip benefits.
You don't get the surprise benefit anyway, and the use of grit point allow you to use the firearm as if it's a bludgeoing weapon (and normally it would cost you a -4 to hit for improvised weapon), add the enanchment bonus to hit (so, instead of -4 you have a +X), and let you make a free trip if you hit (that anyway seems to provoke, but on this I'm not sure). That's because you meka a deed. Basically, because you're cool. Why in the world this make no sense? If you use grit, you're cool, so using an improvised weapon shift from a trivial hit with something not designed for this to a "I hit you in the jaw with my pistol and you go down, because I'm a gunslinger, and so I'm awesome".
Remember that every other improvised weapon would cost a -4 to hit with no benefits, from whoever use it. The grit point allow you the awesomeness of being a gunslinger.
But, this seems to be causing a problem, so I am ok with just using the grit only rule.
This cause problems to you because you think that an improvised weapon should give you advantages if that weapon is a firearm, only because you're a gunslinger. But that's not true. The grit is needed to made your attack more than a simple hit with the butt.
Firearms used as melee weapons are improvises weapons. You get no benefit from the deed unless you spend a grit point. Spending the grit gives you the benefits of the deed and thus proficiency.
The Bayonet that takes on the enchantments of the weapon its attached to is the Sharpshooter's Blade.