I couldn't find an answer to this anywhere in the forum (used the search button).
1) When trying to tumble through an opponent square it is CMD+5, but through a threatened square it is only CMD (let's ignore additional opponents nearby for now...), since the FAQ clearly states that the check is only once per enemy (not square), and that the check my be done immediately upon leaving the threatened square - why couldn't you just do the following:
Side step opponent (5'), take the CMD check for leaving threatened square.
b) go diagonally through the opponent's square (5') then leave it through the other side (5'). You have thus moved half your movement (15' assuming you had 30' to begin with), and prevented the opponent from forcing your acrobatics with a +5 modifier (since the roll had to be made when you first sidestepped, using only the regular 'out of threatened square', rather than the +5 modifier for 'through an opponent's square'.
2) This is just a clarification - does the +5 only apply to the opponent through square you are moving, or also to any adjacent opponents (meaning, is it CMD + 5 for opponent square, and then CMD + 2 for opponent adjacent to opponent square, or is it CMD +5, and CMD + 5 + 2)?
Many thanks.
I'm not sure I understand why you're trying to explain here. Can you clarify?
Quote: Acrobatics: How does Acrobatics work when you use it to avoid attacks of opportunity? When do you make checks? How many do you make?
Acrobatics allows you to make checks to move through the threatened area of foes without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must make a check the moment you attempt to leave a square threatened by an enemy, but only once per foe. The DC (which is based of the Combat Maneuver Defense of each foe), increases by +2 for each foe after the first in one round. The DC also increases by +5 if you attempt to move through a foe. In the case of moving out of the threatened square of two foes at the same time, the moving character decides which check to make first.
For example, a rogue is flanked by a meek goblin and a terrifying antipaladin. The rogue move away from both of them, provoking an attack of opportunity from both, but uses Acrobatics to attempt to negate them. She must move at half speed while threatened by these foes and can choose which to check against first. If she fails a check, she provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe. If she makes it, she does not provoke from moving through that foe's threatened space this turn.
But since you are attempting during the course of your movement to pass through the enemy's square I would still give +5 to the DC despite trying to skirt around the rules by doing somethign funky. That's what a GM's job is.
Well, that's one option.
Another is that the sidestep is one use of the Acrobatics, and the tumble through the square is a second use of Acrobatics requiring a second check because it is a different situation that the original roll.
Yet another one is to do just one CMD+5 check because your intent is to move through the square (though the idea of where you are stopped is a good question - leaving the first square for the sidestep or from the second square before moving through the enemy).
Since your example involves gaming the system in order to pull off an action without paying for it, I'd say it isn't a good solution. In a game I run, I'd pick my 2nd option with the caveat that if they fail by >5, they are stopped from leaving the first square, but if they fail by <=5, they can do the first square but fail to move through the enemy square.
As for your second question, it is +2 per enemy. So if you have two guys in front of you and you decide to tumble through the right one, you face two checks: Left guy's CMD + 2 and right guy's CMD + 5 + 2.
The entire move action is 1 action that requires an acrobatics check. If you are moving through an opponent's square at any point in that move action, the DC increases by 5. If you are provoking AoOs from multiple opponents during the course of that movement, figure out the DC for each roll in the order you are provoking them.
A for instance.
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXOXXXXX
XXXXX3XXXX
XXX2XXXXXX
XXXX1XXXXX
----C-----
----X-----
----X-----
C is the character
#s are enemies
- is a wall
O is the spot the chracter is trying to move to
Assume the CMD for each enemy is 15. To get to the O, you will need to make 3 Acrobatics checks. The DCs for them will be 20, 22, and 24 in order.
Claxon wrote: I'm not sure I understand why you're trying to explain here. Can you clarify?
Quote: Acrobatics: How does Acrobatics work when you use it to avoid attacks of opportunity? When do you make checks? How many do you make?
Acrobatics allows you to make checks to move through the threatened area of foes without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must make a check the moment you attempt to leave a square threatened by an enemy, but only once per foe. The DC (which is based of the Combat Maneuver Defense of each foe), increases by +2 for each foe after the first in one round. The DC also increases by +5 if you attempt to move through a foe. In the case of moving out of the threatened square of two foes at the same time, the moving character decides which check to make first.
For example, a rogue is flanked by a meek goblin and a terrifying antipaladin. The rogue move away from both of them, provoking an attack of opportunity from both, but uses Acrobatics to attempt to negate them. She must move at half speed while threatened by these foes and can choose which to check against first. If she fails a check, she provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe. If she makes it, she does not provoke from moving through that foe's threatened space this turn.
But since you are attempting during the course of your movement to pass through the enemy's square I would still give +5 to the DC despite trying to skirt around the rules by doing somethign funky. That's what a GM's job is.
Yes, but RAW (at least from the FAQ), you make the check IMMEDIATELY as you leave a threatened square, so as soon as you sidesstep - you will make that check (of leaving a threatened square (at CMD), if you then move through that opponent square (the one you rolled against a second ago) - you have already made the check against them. No where does it say that you have to predesignate your entire move. I will give an example:
A (player)
B (enemy)
If you do:
_A (side stepped, taking the acrobatics check at CMD)
B
the check must be done there and then, because the enemy doesn't know you are trying to go through him in a minute, for all he knows you may be trying to reach another enemy far off to the horizon. So you roll across...and then:
__
A (diagonally stepped through opponent B)
Now you don't have to make the check because you have made it against B earlier, you essentially 'feinted' a move through B.
Hope that makes it clearer (sure I know as a GM I can make any ruling I want, but I am interested if RAW that can be done).
MurphysParadox wrote: Well, that's one option.
Another is that the sidestep is one use of the Acrobatics, and the tumble through the square is a second use of Acrobatics requiring a second check because it is a different situation that the original roll.
Actually that isn't true, RAW (FAQ including) - you only make acrobatics roll once per enemy per round - so even though it is a different situation (moving out of threatened square, moving through opponent square) you still only make one check and that check happens as soon as you move out of the threatened square.
I understand the argument you're trying to make, and that my be correct under the strictest reading of RAW, but in reality the check should be made at the point in the movement at which the character has the worst penalty to his check. You're clearly trying to game the system and get around the penalty. It's obvious and blatant and hinges solely upon the idea that the check must be made immediately. Any DM worth his salt is going to tell you no.
Erez Ben-Aharon wrote: MurphysParadox wrote: Well, that's one option.
Another is that the sidestep is one use of the Acrobatics, and the tumble through the square is a second use of Acrobatics requiring a second check because it is a different situation that the original roll.
Actually that isn't true, RAW (FAQ including) - you only make acrobatics roll once per enemy per round - so even though it is a different situation (moving out of threatened square, moving through opponent square) you still only make one check and that check happens as soon as you move out of the threatened square.
You make one roll. Doesn't say anything about making one check.
I'd rule that you get to make ALL the acrobatics checks you incur from one enemy to the same roll, no matter how low or high that roll.
Xenrac wrote: Erez Ben-Aharon wrote: MurphysParadox wrote: Well, that's one option.
Another is that the sidestep is one use of the Acrobatics, and the tumble through the square is a second use of Acrobatics requiring a second check because it is a different situation that the original roll.
Actually that isn't true, RAW (FAQ including) - you only make acrobatics roll once per enemy per round - so even though it is a different situation (moving out of threatened square, moving through opponent square) you still only make one check and that check happens as soon as you move out of the threatened square.
You make one roll. Doesn't say anything about making one check.
I'd rule that you get to make ALL the acrobatics checks you incur from one enemy to the same roll, no matter how low or high that roll. Actually it does...it is in the FAQ - only once per enemy (don't have the link the the Core FAQ now). Btw, I am the GM of the group, but just wondering whether it is a viable option as a sort of a 'feint' for acrobatic characters.
The point of the FAQ I quoted was to streamline the game, instead of making multiple checks every round to pass through multiple threatened square of a single enemy you instead would roll once and that roll would determine the outcome for the entire movement.
Otherwise very strange things happen, like the +5 rule doesn't ever come into play on large size or larger creature because you would've already made the check to move through their threatened area and then just move through their square as a continued part of the movement without taking the penalty.
The Rules and FAQ aren't supposed to read legalistically. They're supposed to be guidelines used with common sense. What you're asking to do would in effect negate the entire point of even putting the rule of increase the DC by 5 by moving through another threatened square before you move through the enemies square.
You make one check per opponent. Only one. You make it with the worst possible modifiers for the movement you intend to make.
Claxon wrote: The point of the FAQ I quoted was to streamline the game, instead of making multiple checks every round to pass through multiple threatened square of a single enemy you instead would roll once and that roll would determine the outcome for the entire movement.
Otherwise very strange things happen, like the +5 rule doesn't ever come into play on large size or larger creature because you would've already made the check to move through their threatened area and then just move through their square as a continued part of the movement without taking the penalty.
The Rules and FAQ aren't supposed to read legalistically. They're supposed to be guidelines used with common sense. What you're asking to do would in effect negate the entire point of even putting the rule of increase the DC by 5 by moving through another threatened square before you move through the enemies square.
You make one check per opponent. Only one. You make it with the worst possible modifiers for the movement you intend to make.
Well, if sidestepping was just gaming the system I would agree - but it can have its drawbacks. For example - if you sidestep first, the square you sidestepped into might be threatened by new enemies adjacent to the new square (enemies that weren't adjacent to your origin square from which you could have just gone through your target enemy). Also - sidestepping cost an addition 5', which means that only extremely agile and unencumbered characters can pull it off (5'+5'+5'= 15') without having to do a full movement and get an additional +10 to the DC.
Erez Ben-Aharon wrote: I couldn't find an answer to this anywhere in the forum (used the search button).
1) When trying to tumble through an opponent square it is CMD+5, but through a threatened square it is only CMD (let's ignore additional opponents nearby for now...), since the FAQ clearly states that the check is only once per enemy (not square), and that the check my be done immediately upon leaving the threatened square - why couldn't you just do the following:
Side step opponent (5'), take the CMD check for leaving threatened square.
b) go diagonally through the opponent's square (5') then leave it through the other side (5'). You have thus moved half your movement (15' assuming you had 30' to begin with), and prevented the opponent from forcing your acrobatics with a +5 modifier (since the roll had to be made when you first sidestepped, using only the regular 'out of threatened square', rather than the +5 modifier for 'through an opponent's square'.
2) This is just a clarification - does the +5 only apply to the opponent through square you are moving, or also to any adjacent opponents (meaning, is it CMD + 5 for opponent square, and then CMD + 2 for opponent adjacent to opponent square, or is it CMD +5, and CMD + 5 + 2)?
Many thanks.
1) As far as I can tell this is would be allowed under RAW. I think it's effectiveness will vary greatly on the situation.
Your assumption of when the AoO "has" to occur is incorrect, the mover does not designate when/if an AoO is taken, the attacker does, thus an intelligent opponent, perhaps realizing (with a sense motive check, or tactics) could save his AoO for a more prudent use or wait for a specific opportunity? example: If the enemy's purpose is to prevent you from passing by them they would simply let you move around without taking AoOs, but not through them.
2) I think I understand what you are asking, and the +5 is only when you pass through the occupied square.
example: I try to pass through 3 occupied squares in a single round of movement (assume the CMD of the opponent is 10), I will need to make three rolls against the following DCs in order: 10+5, 10+5+2, 10+5+2+2. If I add a fourth opponent who gets an AoO against me at the end, but I do not have to move through their square I make another check against a DC of 10+2+2+2+2.
I'm not going to argue about this much further. It is very clearly in the rules that if you try to move through an opponents square while avoiding an AoO you must make a Acrobatics check with a DC of the opponents CMD +5. If you allow anyone to move through a characters square without applying that +5 penalty you are not following the rules as intended. It is literallt only possible to do as you want by a very strict reading of an FAQ that was issued after the rules were initially written and only because of the combinations of words "immediately" and "once".
Please note that a similar issue was brought up after the errata to stealth was made in which players asked for a definitive response for when they should make the single stealth check for moving betweeen spaces. The answer was that the stealth check would be made at the point during the movement where the character had the worst penalties (the greatest chance of success for the person trying to percieve).
You also need to keep in mind that there are different penalties for moving through a threatened square versus an opponent's space. Moving through a threatened square provokes an AoO if the Acrobatics check is failed; moving through an opponent's space provokes an AoO and you lose the move action. So, while you might not provoke the AoO from an opponent that doesn't have Combat Reflexes (if it has already taken the AoO from your sidestep), you'd still be stuck in an adjacent square if you failed the CMD+5 check.
I might even let a PC try this...but I'd certainly require a second acrobatics check.
Also also, since you're moving at half speed, that 5 feet of movement sideways would cost you 10 feet of movement, and the diagonals would cost you 15 feet each. You'd be at 40 feet of movement when you got to the other side of the opponent, not 15. Without something that lets you move faster than the 30-foot base speed, you'd need to double move to even try this (and thus end your turn if you fail).
I think for the overall movement of the character making the check they need to declare intent on where they want to end up, then you calculate each step for pass/fail. Enemy's making AOOs may chose grapple/trip or actually halt progress of the PC along the route. I agree that there should be one roll of acrobatics per move, but its kind of the fingers off the chess piece deal, once committed, you're committed, there is no acrobatic twirl to the left when you realize that guy's going to clock you. I agree completely with Claxon because, well, he's right.
DeathSpot wrote: You also need to keep in mind that there are different penalties for moving through a threatened square versus an opponent's space. Moving through a threatened square provokes an AoO if the Acrobatics check is failed; moving through an opponent's space provokes an AoO and you lose the move action. So, while you might not provoke the AoO from an opponent that doesn't have Combat Reflexes (if it has already taken the AoO from your sidestep), you'd still be stuck in an adjacent square if you failed the CMD+5 check.
I might even let a PC try this...but I'd certainly require a second acrobatics check.
Also also, since you're moving at half speed, that 5 feet of movement sideways would cost you 10 feet of movement, and the diagonals would cost you 15 feet each. You'd be at 40 feet of movement when you got to the other side of the opponent, not 15. Without something that lets you move faster than the 30-foot base speed, you'd need to double move to even try this (and thus end your turn if you fail).
I retract my previous statement and agree. A check to move through the occupied square would still be required, regardless of the ability for a person to take an attack of opportunity. You could not move freely through an enemy square, even if they did not threaten AoOs. You may not take an attack from the enemy, but he could still prevent the movement. This could still work under RAW, simply apply the roll (if taken) from the sidestep to the movement through the square, it is still only one roll. After thinking a bit more on this, it is no different than a high AC mobile character trying to make the enemy waste AoOs before party members approach/run by.
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